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​Outline:

S: This is Sprout

C: and this is Charyan, and we are the hosts of Molotov Now!,  on The Channel Zero Podcast Network, thank you for joining us on this episode of the podcast.

S: if you like what we do here and want to support it, you can do that by going to linktr.ee/al1312 and clicking donate, or scrolling to the bottom for Patreon.

C: We are excited to have a fellow comrade from the Channel Zero Network on the podcast today. Pearson, formerly of Coffee With Comrades is joining us to talk about group dynamics, conflict resolution, and burnout. All important and relevant topics at this time.

S: As emotions run high and tensions build in between people, its important to take time to remember why we are fighting and remind ourselves that the means must be the ends. That is, we must commit ourselves to learning and practicing transformative justice, deescalation, and mediation techniques now, as a process of liberating ourselves. These are valuable skills for us to carry into our organizing spaces. We have a great conversation with long-time organizer and podcaster Pearson about these hard topics and get to the bottom of what we can do to safeguard our movements against internal and external threats and challenges.

C: We will get into some news and upcoming events in the Pacific Northwest. We have some updates from our newsletter The Communique as well as a few pressing mutual aid requests. Thats up next, but first, enjoy this message from our sponsor.

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Monthly Radical News Roundup:

Upcoming Events:

At Pipsqueak in Seattle:

Monday, December 4, 2023
1:00 PM – 4:00 PM
Know your rights for restaurant workers

Wednesday, December 6, 2023
6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
Queer/Trans Art Jam

Sunday, December 10, 2023
12:30 PM – 5:00 PM
Queer Sewing and Mending Day

In Bremerton

In Portland

Online:

Mutual Aid Requests:

Local News

Recently we have noticed multiple announcements for two meetings of a new group here in Grays Harbor WA. It uses the conspicuous name “America First”, a term with a long and brutal legacy steeped in xenophobia, and fascism. This is a troubling development in a county with too many fascist politicians as is. If we are seeing a wave of America First meetings that means that people here are not even satisfied with the fascistic policies being enacted by their beloved political figures, ones they themselves voted in to office not but a few years ago. They are stuck in the electoral trap, but the historical and current links to far right Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists is still upsetting. We cannot stand by idly and let groups like this openly organize in public in our county. Direct action and sabotage is needed to shut down their meetings and publicly shame the participants.

The Harbor Rat Report recently published an excellent article on the history of the phrase, connections to current Neo-Nazi circles, and considered the future of fascism in the 21st century. This article weaves the story of America First from its roots in anti-British nativism in 1884 through its use by candidates for president of both political parties in 1916, to its use as a slogan by the KKK in the 1920s. We end with the racist and xenophobic use of it by Nazi sympathizers and supporters prior to (and after) the entry into WW2. It was revived in 2016 by two candidates, first by Donald Trump, and secondly by David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK.

The phrase is also used by white nationalists and Neo-Nazis in this country such as Nick Fuentes, of the America First Political Action Conference. He has asserted that Muslim speech is not covered by the First Amendment and said on his show in 2017 “Who runs the media? Globalists. Time to kill the globalists” and “I want people that run CNN to be arrested and deported or hanged because this is deliberate.” Globalist is a term used to code the word Jew in white nationalist circles. Following these and other comments, as well as his public attendance of the Unite The Right rally in Charlottesville, his employer and publisher Right Side Broadcasting Network parted ways with Fuentes in August 2017.

In 2021, Fuentes was among the coalition of far right individuals and groups who participated in the rallies that led up to US Capitol attack on January 6th. The FBI is currently investigating a large transfer of bitcoin on December 8th to a group of far right activist which included Fuentes. Fuentes received approximately $681,750 worth of bitcoin in the transaction. Two days before the attack he said: “What can you and I do to a state legislator—besides kill them? We should not do that. I’m not advising that, but I mean, what else can you do, right?”

The article then sums up the recent rise of fascism globally as a new forming movement of trans-national fascism. This movement has been termed alternatively transnational white supremacy, or more poetically “The Reconquest”, a nod to Reconqusita crusade by Christians to reclaim Spain from Muslim rule in the Middle Ages.

The article concludes this way:

This global fascist movement intends to overthrow all democratic institutions and replace them with localized autocracies based on mutually assured oppression of all non-white individuals across the world. They have no problem with borders, they have problems with brown people. They don’t care about immigration, they want ethno-states, with the black and brown states enslaved and exploited by the white ones.

In America this looks like American flags and Christian crosses, children saying the pledge of allegiance everyday at school, and police at every corner. The fascists of the future will use these instruments as their litmus tests to detect the enemy within. They will use the justice system and federal government to subject everyone to the most extreme Christian white nationalist ideologies. They will oppress minorities and declare LGBTQIA2+ people child abusers then declare that child abusers need to be put to death. They will enact their own holocausts. Their plan is called Project 2025, and its being actively pushed by the most powerful coalition of right wing organizations in the history of the country.

Election Results

It is turning out to be a tight election for mayor here in Aberdeen. Although both candidates lost votes over their original counts in the primary, so that is heartening. Only about 18.5% of registered voters participated in the election, according to the auditor.

The most recent results from the Grays Harbor County Auditor’s Office show that Doug Orr leads the race by eight votes over Debi Pieraccini — the same margin he was left with after last Thursday’s count, when he bumped his lead up from the two-vote margin he held after the Nov. 7 count. Another 300 ballots have been counted for the mayor’s race since Nov. 9. Orr’s vote total so far is 1,356 (49.62%) compared to Pieraccini’s 1,348 (49.32%).

This means that by any stretch of the imagination no one has the authority to lead, since this process can hardly be called democratic involving only 2,700 votes for the mayoral race. So take that in to account when reading about the new mayor, they have no real authority. The have no mandate. They have little support. They are weak. This should inform our actions going forward, we need to appeal to those who have discarded the electoral system as a route to change, and show them another way.

Blue Zones

After years of planning and about one year of “development”, Blue Zones, an initiative that aims to “boost longevity and happiness in Grays Harbor County based on lifestyle principles from around the world”, is ready to begin on nine projects they have identified as progressing towards that goal.

Chris Frye, the local executive director of this nation-wide company plans to host a kick-off event at local Blue Zone advocate Summit Pacific Medical Center in order to inform the local populace what to expect. Since these projects were drawn up privately and behind closed doors, most people are unaware about the “changes to the food system” and other plans that Blue Zones has developed.

Nick Buettner, a co-founder of Blue Zones, LLC, will be a guest speaker at the event. His brother, Dan, founded the company almost two decades ago after he set out on a 2004 National Geographic expedition across the globe to pinpoint the specific aspects of lifestyle and environment that lead to longer living. His team located five geographic areas with the highest percentage of centenarians, or 100-year-olds: Loma Linda, California; Nicoya, Costa Rica; Sardinia, Italy; Ikaria, Greece; and Okinawa, Japan.

Those areas were dubbed “Blue Zones.”

Further research into these claims have proved them to be dubious at best, and agenda-based at worst.

Saul Justin Newman from Biological Data Science Institute, Australian National University has taken a deeper look at this data and the results are jaw dropping.

The Abstract:

The observation of individuals attaining remarkable ages, and their concentration into geographic sub-regions or ‘blue zones’, has generated considerable scientific interest. Proposed drivers of remarkable longevity include high vegetable intake, strong social connections, and genetic markers. Here, we reveal new predictors of remarkable longevity and ‘supercentenarian’ status. In the United States, supercentenarian status is predicted by the absence of vital registration. The state-specific introduction of birth certificates is associated with a 69-82% fall in the number of supercentenarian records. In Italy, which has more uniform vital registration, remarkable longevity is instead predicted by low per capita incomes and a short life expectancy. Finally, the designated ‘blue zones’ of Sardinia, Okinawa, and Ikaria corresponded to regions with low incomes, low literacy, high crime rate and short life expectancy relative to their national average. As such, relative poverty and short lifespan constitute unexpected predictors of centenarian and supercentenarian status, and support a primary role of fraud and error in generating remarkable human age records.

The newsletter then goes on to break down the various ways that the data used to reach the Blue Zones diet conclusion is inherently flawed.

Take the Adventists of Loma Linda, California; male Adventists live about 7 years longer than other white Californians, and this is ascribed to their lifestyle. The Adventist church recommends being vegetarian, although not all Adventists follow that stricture.

But Mormons in California and Utah appear to have about the same increase in life expectancy as the Adventists, and they are not vegetarians. So why aren’t Mormons on the Blue Zone list? Is it because of an agenda? The company Blue Zones was recently purchased by the Health Care wing of the Seventh Day Adventist Church known as AdventHealth, a parent company with its own controversies, and a vested interest in promoting its lifestyle as a longevity cure. It is the largest not-for-profit Protestant health care provider.

Despite these flaws in the data, Dan Buettner eventually published a book on the subject in 2008 and the company began piloting the concept in American cities. They applied the principles first to a small town in Minnesota, then moved to the beach communities of California, and on to Iowa.

Today Blue Zones is active in about two dozen communities across the country, including five in Washington state: Walla Walla and Spanaway, where the company has implemented projects; and Mason, Lewis and Grays Harbor counties, where ideas are still being developed.

Grays Harbor County stacks up as one of the unhealthiest in the state based on life expectancy and quality, according to the 2022 County Health Rankings and Roadmaps from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. The county has higher rates of smoking and obesity than the statewide average, and fewer access opportunities to exercise by a factor of one-fifth. This makes it an excellent candidate for the Blue Zones faulty data scheme.

Those statistics were incorporated into Summit Pacific Medical Center’s community health needs assessment for the next two years. The hospital played a large role in bringing Blue Zones to Grays Harbor, including launching an initial study to see if the community was interested in the concept. The assessment was backed by a $25,000 contribution from the Grays Harbor Board of County Commissioners.

Frye, who lives in Hoquiam, has spent about one year as executive director of the local project. He’s spent that time reaching out to local governments, nonprofits, agencies, other leaders and people from different facets of the community. A similar group met at a summit held in Aberdeen this summer. They exchanged ideas about potential projects for improvements to public spaces and food systems, which then bounced back and forth between Grays Harbor and a national Blue Zones team, ultimately whittling a long list down to nine projects chosen by the Blue zones team, not representative of the ideas of the community partners.

The newsletter then details the county wide plans that Blue Zones has for our community. Ranging from the built environment to food policy, they plan to use this faulty data to guide the development of this county, among others.

Police Gas Mentally Ill Man

Cold Weather Shelter Request Goes Unanswered

The County’s request for proposals for a cold weather shelter went unanswered last month, making the likelihood of anyone opening a shelter this year incredibly low.

The application, which asked for proposals for cold weather emergency services such as a congregate shelter, hotel vouchers and more individualized options like tiny homes or pallet shelters — on Sept. 6, and left the application open until Oct. 23, but did not receive any applications. Services were expected to begin this month.

Since there is still $530,000 in state and county funding for these services, county commissioners have agreed to move toward expanding existing contracts that do not involve a congregate shelter, things like hotel/motel vouchers and street outreach programs.

Grays Harbor County Public Health confirmed with the Washington State Department of Commerce that those are suitable uses for the funds, which include $160,000 in emergency housing funds from the state, which will expire in 2025, and $370,000 in county document recording fees that are not time-sensitive.

Heeding recommendations from public health, county commissioners suggested sending an extra $250,000 to Coastal Community Action Program’s hotel and motel voucher program, as well as $100,000 to Chaplains on the Harbor to expand its day center and street outreach programs.

“That would be a good start, at least to show we’re trying to spend the money that we have appropriately, and while we don’t have a shelter we’ll try and house as many as we can in the hotel- motel situation, and utilizing Chaplains’ street outreach program I think will be beneficial,” District 3 Commissioner Vickie Raines said.

Even these amounts will not be finalized until the commissioners meet again alter this month. As the cold weather has already arrived, many are wondering what is taking so long. This is unfortunately not a new phenomenon, as winter occurs every year, and the local fascists have been pushing against shelters within the Aberdeen city limits for years.

CCAP claims that this amount would more than double their current amount of rooms to potential total of 30 rooms. With hundreds in need of warm shelter this winter it fails to amount to much in the face of such need. The program prioritizes people who are “medically fragile and vulnerable,” or households with children, pregnancies or life-threatening illnesses.

These non congregate shelter options are great for those who can obtain them, demonstrating a higher level of care and attention paid to those in a consistent hotel room for the winter. The number of people exiting this program into permanent housing was much higher than any other emergency housing service offered last year. But seeing as it only covers a small percentage of people in need it is clearly insufficient.

Providing emergency shelter during the winter months is part of Grays Harbor County’s five-year plan to address homelessness, which was published in 2019. But two of the commissioners, and the Aberdeen mayor, and several city council members have pushed back hard against the existence of a shelter in city limits. Voting last year to outright ban one.

The extra dollars for the program at Chaplains will not include any overnight shelter options either as they will simply expand their day shelter hours and offer their social service engagement services. They claim their decision has nothing to do with new restrictions voted into place in Westport in October. The ordinance required Chaplains to apply for a permit to run the shelter, keep a daily log with names of all shelter guests, and gave the mayor authority to determine the shelter’s maximum capacity.

The city began to draft those regulations earlier this year after the county awarded extra funding to Chaplains to expand overnight capacity at the shelter last winter, which many residents objected to at public meetings.

That extra funding was available because other shelters fell through due to problems with location after the Aberdeen City Council asked that a shelter not be operated within the city limits. It is clear that the hate of the unhoused is strong in the right wing, who voice their views at these city council meetings not often attended by the unhoused themselves.

The Moore Wright Group, another social services organization, applied to host a 7-12 bed shelter in one of its residential houses last year, but concerns over city code and occupancy snagged the proposal. Tanikka Watford, the group’s executive director, said that because past shelter applications hadn’t yielded any county funding, the group “decided this isn’t something that makes sense for us to keep pursuing.”

Without an organization made up of the people living in these circumstances there is no outcome that the current leadership will come up with other than total eradication of the unhoused. By forcing people to live outside throughout a bitter Northwestern winter is cruel and inhumane. Those who want this to be the state of affairs want nothing less than the death of our friends on the streets. No one else is coming to save us. We must organize among ourselves and form our own counter-institutions to resist the efforts of those in positions of power and advance our own agenda of housing for all.

Interview:

Sprout: Welcome back to Molotov Now!.

Today we’re joined by Pearson, formerly of Coffee with Comrades, although it was recently announced that he will be ending the podcast this month to pursue more writing and to be more present in his own life and career. We wanted to bring him on today to talk a bit about collective processing of conflict, trauma, burnout, and maybe talk a little bit about the future of Channel Zero Network as a media collective.

Thank you for joining us today on the podcast. We hope that this conversation can be used by people in conflictual situations as a guide for how to build processes for conflict resolution that did not keep the issue in the realm of the individual, but can bring these processes out into the open to be dealt with collectively.

I think this can reduce the harm caused by individual infighting and abuse and can hold people accountable for their actions to a greater degree than individualized processes can. So for our audience who might not be familiar, Pearson, you want to introduce yourself?

Pearson: Yeah, sure. What’s up, y’all? My name’s Pearson.

I, uh, oh gosh, I wear a bunch of hats. I used to do a show wearing many hats. Yeah. Listen, it’s cold. You know, you gotta wear all of the hats. Otherwise your, your dome piece is going to get too cold and your brain’s going to get all foggy. No, I mean, I, I I used to do a podcast which is so weird to say now, cause I’m literally talking into a mic, doing a podcast with the two of you, but yeah, I used to do a podcast called Coffee with Comrades.

We put out over 200 episodes, had a good time. It’s all online. You can go check it out. If you are interested in that sort of thing Molotov now is a, is a I guess a sister show of, of Coffee with Comrades on the channel zero network, which is super dope. And I’m glad that we can have conversations like this in perpetuity.

Yeah, I have been organizing for a long time. I’m an anarchist. I’m a parent. I’m a professor. Like I said, I wear, I wear many hats.

Sprout: Awesome. So, in our, in our current political climate, and especially with the genocide occurring in Gaza, people are extremely heightened emotionally, understandably, and this inevitably leads to conflict in our spaces.

This is especially true for large, more loose knit groups that may include people without much affinity and without much knowledge about the situation or even wrong assumptions about the nature of the oppression going on. I have personally seen this erupt into more conflict than almost any other issue.

I don’t know why that is, but if we’re going to successfully liberate ourselves from toxic cycles of abuse, we need to be able to resolve these conflicts in our spaces when they turn up. Have you experienced anything along these lines in your spaces? Yeah,

Pearson: I mean totally. I mean, not necessarily around the conflict in Palestine.

I think that I have for better or worse been in you know, situations and communities in which I am either in broad agreement with people on that issue or like. Are like the enemies of people on that, that issue, like very reactionary people. Right. So, like generally speaking, I, you know, find myself in more or less you know, affinity about that particular conflict.

But as far as like. Conflict generally. Absolutely. I mean, you know, it’s an inescapable facet of trying to exist in community with people. You’re inevitably going to have disagreements. And unfortunately, there are also times where like. Abuse happens and where manipulation happens and where like bad actors get involved in community spaces and try to tear them down either because they’re part of the state or they are, you know, part of a you know, reactionary like street level movement is trying to you know, sabotage.

And so I think that like, Being able to like identify those differences of like when you are having conflict with someone who you’re broadly in agreement with in a community space versus when you’re having conflict with someone who is actively and unrepentantly abusing people or who is actively trying to sabotage.

Like whatever it is you’re trying to do is super important. Cause like the methods that you deal with, those two different types of conflict are necessarily very different. You know what I mean?

Sprout: Yeah, definitely. I’ve mostly been concerned with like. The internal group dynamics and how, even when you do have affinity with someone, when emotions are heightened or when people are really tense or tired or burnt out or whatever it is, even just simple misunderstandings can turn into huge conflicts and, you know, most of what I’ve seen written on the subject is aimed at individuals seeking resolution for like individual harm caused to them.

But as anarchists, we know the value of collective processes of accountability and harm mitigation. How can we as anarchists acknowledge conflict and respond appropriately to it? Are there models that you’re aware of that promote collective processes?

Pearson: Yeah, I mean, I guess there’s a handful of zines that I’ve come across over the years or, you know, conversations that I’ve had with people over the years.

But I, I think generally, right, like the, the, the kind of base model for trying to, Mediate conflict in a, you know, large community space is to start on a smaller level, right. To try and address like very directly with the person that you’re beefing with, or that you have a misunderstanding with and, and to be as direct and specific about that issue as possible and try to address it on an, on an interpersonal basis.

And when that. Doesn’t pan out, which happens inevitably, like the next real step then hopefully is to not try and you know, leave the group or tear away from it, but to try to figure out what’s at the heart of that, that disagreement, especially if it’s like a really important one about strategy or about you know an organization’s general approach.

And so, like, I think that. Having people who are dedicated and, and have the tool set of doing mediation is really, really helpful being able to have people who have some training in conflict resolution and can help address those issues as they arise and who are sort of the, the, the de facto.

Folks who get engaged in that work of trying to do deescalating or, or mediation is, is really, really vital to the health and longevity of, of any social movement because otherwise things splinter and break off. And sometimes that happens and like, that’s okay. Like that’s an inevitable part of the struggle.

But I think that, you know, whenever possible being able to. Solve those issues, especially when people are still in a, in a headspace where they can be amenable and cordial with one another is, is, is. You know, the optimal route to, to resolution, you know what I mean?

Charyan: So building on that, I would ask, what do you think we could do to possibly build a culture around the idea of the need for mediation and whatnot?

Because I know in our experiences, it seems that we can have these tools in place, we can kind of have like a plan of what to do when conflict arises. But the biggest barricade we just tend to run into is just the individual parties involved, just not wanting to take part in that process, whether it be the victim or offender.

Pearson: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, and so often, right? Like sometimes there’s multiple offenders and, and maybe one person does want to get engaged and like other people don’t or you know, what do you do in a situation where you know, somebody has, you know, experienced some kind of like assault or like sexual misconduct or harassment.

And like, how do you address that? And I think that there are like, yeah. Myriad ways to, to potentially try and encounter it. But I think that to answer your question, a lot of it is contextual and like depends on whether people are active and, and willing to set aside whatever difference it is that they, that, that, that kind of sparked or initiated the conflict and actually try and bridge that gap, I think that sometimes.

People aren’t in that, that space, and I think that, like, that’s okay because I think that there is a real central tenet that I think is important which is, like, voluntary association, like, we have a culture, I think, in, especially, like, you know, libertarian left spaces anarchist spaces, in particular, of, like, willingly associating with people, right, and if that, if you can’t like find that sort of affinity at all, then it’s reasonable to, to leave that situation or leave that space.

Right. And so I think that on the one hand, like we shouldn’t try to force or cajole or manipulate people into a mediation process if they’re not willing to, right. But at the same time, I think your question is like getting to the heart of how do we build a culture that encourages that type of interaction and, and fosters that sort of affinity.

And that I think is the million dollar question. Cause I, you know, I, I’m not sure there is a, you know, silver bullet to that. But I think that, you know, one way to, to potentially start is to build these. Processes of accountability and of, of deescalation and of mediation and of conflict resolution at the small scale and start practicing them actively in order to illustrate to folks that like they not only work on a small scale, but they can work on on the large scale so that there’s that sort of institutional memory.

There’s that sense of trust. There’s that sense of, oh, this isn’t our first rodeo. We’ve done this before. The other thing that I would say that I think is really critical. Is to, like, encourage folks to, like, recognize that in order to forward, there are some types of conflict that like you can agree to disagree about, or that you can go along with in ways that are, you know, more or less.

Kind of like you know, like, I don’t agree with you, but I’ll, I’ll stand aside. I’m not going to like, you know, be a hard liner about this particular thing. And then there are

Charyan: so much for the tolerant left type.

Pearson: Right. Right. Exactly. Totally. But then there’s, there are also things that are like really bad, right?

Like Like sexual assault, right? Like those are sorts of things that like need to be addressed. Right. And sometimes that means trying to have an accountability process in order to like address the harm that was, was done. And sometimes it means needing to drive a motherfucker out of, out of a space because they’re no longer welcome there.

And like, it’s going to look differently depending on the context, you know, but I think it, you know, again, to get to the heart of your question, if we’re trying to build. Affinity, then starting on the small scale, creating those structures, and then illustrating how they work will, will build trust in that, in that network and in that that power of mediation that can, can solve small problems and can hopefully address larger issues as well.

Charyan: How would you describe the difference between like large scale and small scale? Where do those lines break down?

Pearson: Yeah, I mean, again, I like, I’m not sure if there’s a clear delineation, right? And it’s going to look differently for different people, right? Because for some people, you know, something like, Oh, I encountered.

This particular microaggression on somebody using ableist language, and I think that they should be called into an accountability process, right? And other people might be like, okay, like they said, you know, some, they said, they said a word that people use all the time. That, that isn’t like a slur, but it’s like a normal word that people often use.

Is it really necessary for Like an entire accountability process that to be to happen, or can we just have a conversation about it? Or is it something like, Oh, somebody like used like more harsh like, like, like language to describe a, a certain people group. Like that might be something that you want to like address or, you know, like building up even higher.

This person keeps. Making weird remarks to some of the femme folk in our, our, our organization and it’s making them uncomfortable. We need to like have a intervention and talk with this person and try to get to the heart of what’s going on and why they’re not picking up on things that are, are clearly being expressed that there’s not like an interest, like mutual interest there, or is it like really, really intense, like somebody.

is actively like abusing someone like, like intimate partner violence or you know, some kind of manipulation that’s happening amongst the group where one person is like hoarding power for his or herself rather than you know, Sharing it amongst the, the, the entirety of the group, either by like accruing social capital, or perhaps like maybe your org like takes donations and, and, and they’re the only person who has the bank account information, right?

Like, those are kinds of like larger, like issues that probably ought to be addressed. And then. It’s I think it’s up to each kind of group to sort of determine where that line is for themselves. And so like my line may not look the same as yours and it may not look the same at to a listeners, but I think that as much as possible being able to have those kinds of conversation about like, what is an offense that’s worthy of.

You know, having a a, a deescalation or a a conflict resolution is, is useful because again, if we have that language to articulate and identify where those red lines are ahead of time, then we’ll know when and where to engage with these processes when they become necessary.

Sprout: Yeah, I think the. case by case nature of it is really important.

Obviously, these skills are important to learn for organizers. I know in one case in particular, recently, in one of the larger groups that I’m a part of, there was a bit of a misunderstanding that turned into a conflict , perhaps needlessly, but you know, the conflict arose and people left the group over it and I reached out to them and we tried to organize a little smaller group that was going to deal with this and it was the first time this group has had any sort of conflict.

So we hadn’t really developed any processes or commitments to participate in anything like this. So I got whoever I could in the group to participate. And we laid out some ground rules and, you know, everyone voiced their needs and concerns. And it just got to the point where the person who had originated the conflict was themselves being so conflictual that other people started to drop out of the group because they didn’t feel safe.

And it got to the point where we needed like a neutral mediator to come in and that is like $600 a session, you know, and there’s no way we can afford that for this little, well, this big ad hoc group or whatever, but so being able to get that training and spread it throughout your networks is crucial.

Charyan: I would also add with like the nature of the conflict itself, there is an issue of how would you even call a neutral?

What would you even call a neutral mediator? By like, what would that even look like in that particular instance? Without getting too much into the details of like, the group and what had happened and what not, it’s kind of like the same idea of like being politically neutral. It’s just like, what does that mean?

Who does that serve? Especially when you’re dealing with a topic such as what we were dealing with. And to throw other examples out. Like whether it’s a, case uh, about this is sexual assault or, you know, Israel and Palestine or would be, I don’t know, just other hot topic issues that have. As far as from a liberatory space, a clear kind of definitive side, but we’re still trying to get people to learn and grow from, you know, because everybody’s kind of on their own journeys, not everybody’s at the same like a level of radicalism or however you want to phrase it.

Sprout: We’re all learning. Yeah, and obviously there’s some conflicts that aren’t going to be resolved. What tips do you have for when and how to make that determination as to what can be effectively resolved, and what is a fundamental difference that can’t be resolved?

Charyan: Yeah, how do you know if you can fix the situation, or if like, somebody just needs to be kicked from the group?

Pearson: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I just want to echo what you said about neutrality, right? Like, there isn’t real, like, this idea of neutrality and this is something I express to my students all the time, isn’t real. Like, everything is, like, It is constantly kind of the lines are being drawn in different ways.

Like it’s very difficult to find ways to be truly unbiased or truly neutral. Right? And I think that if anything, we should own our biases and be frank about how we want to aspire towards and aim for more liberatory, more transformative, more revolutionary. Horizons and aspirations and that like that should be the end goal of mediation is to try to create the opportunities for liberation and transformation rather than, you know, quote unquote fairness, right?

Like to really to really be actively committed towards justice. I think it requires us to be biased towards liberation. Does that make sense? But I guess to answer your question, right? Like, what are the hard lines? I think that, like, there’s got to be caveats, right? Like, there’s got to be exceptions and carve outs you know, if people are totally set on belittling or ignoring the humanity of others, that’s got to be a hard line, right?

Like if people are unrepentant and unwilling to engage in a process of accountability or of Of conflict resolution, then that probably should be a red flag as well. That this person is not, you know, engaging in good faith. If you know, the, the situation is, Oh, like this, this one person will say they’re a masculine person because they almost always are.

A masculine person who has, has harassed or, or has been kind of pestering a femme person for, to like go out on a date with them. And they’re like part, they’re all part, we’re all part of the same like affinity group. Right. And it gets to the point where this woman who’s being pestered doesn’t feel comfortable with having that person, that masculine person continuously coming to the group because, you know, it’s annoying.

It’s potentially. Triggering, you know, especially if this person has had negative experiences like this in the past or being, you know, forced to, to engage with people who, like, they’re not interested in engaging with. Right. What do you do in that situation? Right. And I think that in those kinds of situations, again, it, it does come down to a large and a large sense to, to contextuality of trying to like, get to the bottom of like Hey, what’s going on?

How can we try and address this and trying to as much as possible, pull people to the table and have a frank and earnest conversation about it. But I think that like, you know, hard lines, like if someone. If it goes beyond like harassment and somebody like, you know, rapes someone like that’s probably grounds for driving them out of the organization.

You know, I have seen on way too many occasions groups that are more than happy to keep rapists and, and serial abusers in their ranks because they’re probably like you know, they have a lot of social capital, they’re popular. Or because they’re good organizers, because they’re, they’re veterans, they have experience.

And so those folks get away with those kinds of behaviors. And I think that like, that’s gotta be a hard line, right? Again, if our, if our goal in the end is transformation and is liberation, then those aren’t the kinds of people that we want to be involved with. And I think. Pushing those people out is, is, is necessary and natural.

The last thing that I’ll say is that like, there are situations where we can find affinity with people whose politics we don’t necessarily agree with, right? You know, I have done a lot of union organizing, which meant, which means that I have dealt with a fuck ton of liberals in my time and it is exhausting, but.

I have never organized and will never organize with fascists. Like that’s a hard fucking line. Right. And so like there’s this, this kind of, I think there are clearer demarcations depending upon the type of offense that someone might’ve caused and a type of politics that somebody might be entering into a space with that, that might be hard lines for saying, no, I’m not going to work with them or they’re not going to be welcome in our spaces.

Does that, does that kind of. scan. Does that make sense?

Sprout: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s those those middle cases where that’s where it gets on the border where things are gray. They get real sticky. Have you had any personal experiences successful or unsuccessful with group conflict resolution?

Pearson: Listen, homie, I wish I could tell you that I had more successful experiences than the negative experiences, but unfortunately, a lot of them have been negative.

I think that this kind of work is is so essential, but it’s also so Fucking difficult because I think that to a large extent, we have a, we have a propensity, especially on the left to dig our heels in and to be very dogmatic or search for a certain sense of like ideological purity. And this has happened in spaces that I’ve been in.

You know, I don’t want to air anybody’s dirty laundry, but I. You know, the, the, I, I know that those are also situations that y’all can identify with. And I think that there is a sense that people often feel like it’s not worth investing the time and energy and space in. And I think if we’re going to combat that, we have to, like, build the types of networks and communities that, that, that really center relationships so that people aren’t so quick to throw in the towel.

Because the times that I have seen it be successful are when there are groups of people who are genuinely, sincerely committed to each other and to the success of that whatever group they might be engaged in. So An example that I have seen that was successful because I would like to end, you know, if, if possible on a, on a happier note than a dour one.

When I lived in Orlando, I had a small community of folks who were interested in doing anti fascist organizing and who were flyering. It was, it was in the wake of the Trump election. And so a lot of people were really activated and motivated to engage in that type of work. And came to find out that there was a person in the group who had a, I guess you could say had a pretty regressive idea about how to engage with fascists in the streets, right.

And, and thought that the best way to do this was to simply talk to that, talk, try to talk to them, try to deescalate with them rather than try and confront them and make fascism untenable, right. Through direct action and through direct means. Right. And so a lot of us were like. We’re not doing that.

Like, that’s not what we’re here for, buddy. We’re here to, to de platform the Nazis, right? And what we agreed to, right as an affinity group was that, like, we are going to try and give each other the space and the benefit of the doubt to act in a way That is consistent with our own conscience. And that, that is, you know, not condemning others for the types of action that they want to engage in, because this person was, was very adamant that, you know, we couldn’t respond to violence with violence that we needed to, if we, you know, the ends did not justify the means that the ends were the means, and that in order to like make the better world that we wanted to see, we had to actively emulate those things that we wanted to see.

I’m sympathetic to that position, right? This sort of You know anarcho pacifistic kind of approach, right? I’m sympathetic to that, but not where I’m not, you know, and not where most of the other people in that group are at. Right. And eventually, like that person came to the decision through conversations that were mediated by other members of that group that not only would they not stand in the way of anybody engaging in more direct.

kinds of anti fascist action. But furthermore, they would not critique anyone for engaging in that type of action. And they would cover for people who are engaging that type of action and not say anything, not, you know, not speak to the cops, not, you know, not share any information with anyone outside of the group whatsoever.

And eventually this person kind of, their, their politics changed. They became more radical. And. Yeah, I, I, I’m not going to share too many stories about that, that, that particular affinity group, but like they got their hands in the soil, so to speak, they got, they, they were, they were willing to take more colorful forms of direct action over time, but that’s the type of like conflict resolutions where people like feel really sincerely, like this is the way that you do anarchism.

This is the way that you live your politics is to be, to be. Totally ethically consistent and, and all this stuff without like. Really realizing, Oh, like there’s a rigidity here. There’s a dogma here that I’m not addressing that I have to unlearn. Right. And so being able to like, again, it, it, it, it, it sounds so elementary, but like being able to agree to disagree, being able to like decide as a group that we are willing to adopt a diversity of tactics was a way that we could.

Continue to move forward and keep all the members of the group without anybody leaving, without anybody having their feelings hurt, without anybody having their sincerity and their commitment to to action questioned or, or delegitimized. So I would say that was like a successful, you know, kind of conflict resolution.

Charyan: That definitely sounds a lot more successful than a lot, most other people, liberal takes that I’ve seen crop up in radical circles and eventually get like alienated and pushed out and whatnot. The start of the story, for example, kind of reminded me of this image I saw online. It was like a comment on, like, a YouTube video for, like, Wolfenstein 2.

It was something along the lines of just like, Oh, hello everyone. I’m a centrist liberal. Or, I’m a centrist liberal. And let me say that the first Wolfenstein is too damn hard. And I can’t get past that first level. The The enemies won’t listen to my reason and discourse on why their ideology is flawed and just shoot me to death.

I have a lot of weapons at my disposal, but killing the Nazis would make me just as bad as them. Does anyone have any links on a walkthrough that would allow me to keep the moral high ground?

Pearson: Yeah that’s hilarious. I’ve seen that comment float around in certain spaces. And I think, you know, it… It’s not just anti fascist spaces where, like, diversity of tactics and these kinds of conflicts, like, arise, like, like I mentioned earlier, I’ve done a lot of union organizing and interfaced and interacted with a lot of liberals, and it got to a point, I, you know, I left Florida before the worst of it, I left Florida at the beginning of the pandemic, but I was, I’ve been teaching in Florida for God, the almost overwhelming majority of my teaching career has been teaching in, in Florida.

And so, you know, a lot of, a lot of folks in unions were very reticent to take more grand types of action. And it got to a point where. There was a bill in the Florida legislature that was going to disband, automatically, any union that was not at 50 percent union membership in that given workplace, right?

Just like, automatically, that union would be destroyed.

Charyan: That doesn’t even sound legal, what? I

Pearson: listen, it’s fucking Florida. You know, it’s, that’s, that’s how we Florida, that’s a fair point, Florida. Listen I’m from Florida, I can shit on Florida. Nobody else can, but I can. But yeah, so, you know, they’re gonna destroy our unions, and people are like, yeah, but we don’t have the right to strike, so we can’t do anything, because Florida is a right to work state.

And it’s like, motherfuckers, okay. If you won’t at least like, you know, go on strike, then, then we can fucking march, you know, we can have a, have a you know, a, a, a, a sit in day with our, with our students, we can call in sick, you know, like it, there are ways to do this and that’s eventually what happened is like on a school day, a bunch of students and a bunch of teachers, you know, went Not on strike, but did a demonstration, right?

We didn’t teach. We invited our students into the streets, went on a big, long march. It was this huge thing. It was super like celebratory and positive. I’ve talked about it elsewhere. But like, that was like a real. Like, conflict was people being like, Yeah, they’re gonna destroy our union, but we can’t do anything about it.

And, and, and having to get, like, having to kind of shake people by the shoulders and be like, Motherfucker.

Charyan: Like, I like the idea of being able to have options for people, but I’ve definitely have never understood the, like, the concept of, like, the sanction strike.

Pearson: It’s just like, right, like, the whole point of it’s a strike.

It’s a strike.

Charyan: Yeah, like, oh, you think you’re going to ever convince your employer to just be like, Oh, hey, we’re gonna go on strike.

Pearson: Oh, yeah, we’re cool with that man. Yeah, cool, bud. Go for it

Charyan: Just that’s just That’s just not how strikes work.

Pearson: You just do a strike. Yeah, it’s very frustrating. Yeah, I mean, I would say those are some positive experiences.

I like I said, I, I, I’ve had more positive experiences. I’ve had a lot more negative experiences but I’m not necessarily sure if there’s anything positive or redemptive or useful to really be gleaned from dwelling on some of those negative experiences.

Sprout: One thing I’ve been playing around with in my head is the idea of setting the intention early on in a group formation.

Something where people involved agree ahead of time to participate in conflict resolution should the need arise. Have you been a part of any groups like that where conflict resolution was a shared value that people committed to?

Pearson: Yeah, surprisingly, the DSA at least our DSA chapter in Tallahassee was, was committed to that principle.

Now, did it play out that way? That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s debatable. But, was it a shared prin was it an expressed principle? Was it, like, written into bylaws? Was it a, a a thing that, like, like There was a committee and people presented on and all that, you know, like, like, yes, like it was, it was very clearly something that, like, was valued, was centered, centered is the wrong word, but was a was valued and was a facet of the organizing work that was going on.

So I do think that. That is a really valuable thing. I do think though, that if you are going to espouse that, you have to be consistent about it. And that, that, that as, as much as possible, resolutions should be resolved in a timely manner because otherwise people start to like. Think that you’re just paying lip service.

And for good reason, because if you’re not actually doing anything about it, if you’re espousing this value, but not acting in a way that’s commensurate with the value that you’re espousing something, there’s not like lining up. So, yeah, I think that, you know, having those stated at the outset is like super duper valuable.

But if you are going to do that, you have to be, you know, like I said, consistently, yeah, consistently dedicated to that, that principle.

Music:

We willl get back to our conversation with Pearson in just a moment but for now its time for a musical break. Here is Friends (You Matter) by Bird Teeth. Hit It!

Sprout: Well, you know, I really appreciated what you said about centering relationships. I think that a lot of what we’ve seen around conflict arising has been essentially because relationships have been falling apart, like interpersonal relationships in a group.

And I think a large part of what can lead to that tendency is burnout. So burnout is generally accepted to be a response to heightened and prolonged periods of stress. This is certainly something that organizers of all kinds are familiar with. It is especially pervasive in the social service industries as the machinations of the non profit industrial complex tend to grind well meaning people into dust for the profits and continued existence of some faceless agency.

What experiences of burnout have you had, and did you feel as though you had a community that understood what you were going through?

Pearson: Yeah. Oh God. I mean, I think burnout is if you do this work for any amount of time, it’s, it’s necessarily going to happen. And I mean, I think, you know, perhaps the most recent example for me was, was doing the podcast and, and needing to like, take a step back from it and, and try and reassess how I’m engaging with Yeah.

Creative projects that I, that I am interested in and that I want to pursue, but also kind of trying to take stock of like, you know, how things shift and how things change, because I think that, you know, just as much as burnout can be the experience of, of relationships breaking down, I think the opposite can also be true.

And that burnout can come from making new relationships and not. Feeling the same affinity for a project or for a an organization that you might have once felt right. You know, I, I say this with, with some experience, like I used to, not especially willingly but I, I, I used to organize a little bit with the DSA in Tallahassee because one, it was one of the first radical orgs that I

radical, semi radical orcs that I encountered when I moved to Tallahassee. But also because like, they were doing a lot of really good and cool and awesome work, right? But at the same time, I also like went to the DSA National Convention in 2019, and it was a Fucking clusterfuck. They refused to pass a anti fascist, like, like agreement or proposal.

They, they cho they refused to Big sigh. I know, big sigh. They refused to pass a proposal in solidarity with Palestine. It was just a nightmare. And people were just rude to each other. And, you know, it became very clear that even though I had friends and comrades who were in the local chapter of the DSA, that I wanted nothing to do with the DSA anymore.

Right. So, yeah, I mean, I’ve had lots of. that where there’s needing to step away from an organization and step into new work. So I started organizing more directly after that with a group called SJP or students for justice in Palestine, started organizing more with a group called a CPE or the center for participant education, which is like a, you know.

By students for students, sort of Skillshare or workshop centric kind of group that was on campus and that was doing some really cool work in the community. Right? And so like, I think that just as burnout can come from relationships breaking down, it can also come from recognizing, Oh, I have this other thing, this other commitment or this other interest or this other project that I want to be engaged with.

And I only have so many hours in the day, right. And in order to not burn out and in order to be able to not spread myself too thin, I need to make some educated. And hard choices about what is the best thing for me to do? How, what is the best expenditure of my energy? How can I most contribute to my community in this particular given circumstance, the last thing I’ll say is that I think that cycles of burnout happen constantly and that like, there’s a lot of machismo and I think a lot of.

Emphasis on trying to fight through burnout, right? Like that you have to be militant and dedicated and you have to work super hard and, you know, they don’t call it a struggle for no reason. And like, to a certain extent, that’s true, I guess. But on the other side, you know, the adage that an empty glass can’t fill another is totally true, right?

Like, we only have so much energy, we only have so much ability to like, care for others, and if we’re not caring for ourselves, if we’re not taking time to Find pleasure and find joy and find enrichment then how can we possibly hope to help others find joy and pleasure and enrichment? How can we other possibly help to break, help people break their chains?

Right? And so I think that, like, we have to kind of take a step back and recognize that when burnout happens, that’s not a personal failure. It’s a natural, inevitable exchange of energy and of passion and of ability. And that in order to like stay dedicated to the revolutionary transformation of society, long term, it is necessary to take breaks, to take steps back every now and then, to take breaths, to try and recalibrate, like that’s a valuable thing.

And it makes you a better and more capable revolutionary. If you’re able to focus on the things that bring you joy, because if you are, are, are coming into a space with joy and your heart and with. Hope for a better tomorrow in your mind, then you’re necessarily going to be able to contribute more to whatever project it is that you’re working on than you would if you were burnt out because you were you had your fingers in a million different pies and you never said no to anyone.

Does that make sense?

Charyan: Yeah

Sprout: I like the perspective of burnout not being something that’s going to be avoided necessarily, but something that should be accounted for. Yeah. You know, I, I think that. That’s another in the line of culture building around getting the group to sort of collectively accept that people are going to come and go and that doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily leaving the community, just because they step back from a project or an affinity group or something.

And it’s not like. Once you leave, you can’t come back, kind of stuff.

Pearson: I think young radicals, people who are really excited, want to say yes to everything. And I love that energy. I think it’s fucking awesome, right? But I’ve, like I said, at the top of this conversation, I’ve been doing this for a really long time.

And I’ve, I don’t want to like, you know, toot my own horn by any stretch of the imagination, but I’ve been doing it for a long time because of the fact that I’ve… Started to recognize that there are these ebbs and flows. There are these waves and that like, you know, it’s okay to like, take time for yourself.

It’s okay to rest. It’s okay to rejuvenate. It’s okay to recalibrate. And I think that like, I think that people who are really, really, really excited and who want to be involved and really. Are passionate about this new thing that they have discovered this, this new way of understanding the world, they really want to, to change the world.

And that’s a beautiful, wonderful, vital thing that, that we have to hold on to. But I think that. It can be really, really, really easy to kind of overcorrect and try to change everything at once, rather than focusing meaningfully on small direct ways that you can make a difference in your community or in your personal life, right?

Like those things are still valuable and are still worthy of, of doing. And even if they aren’t grand or sexy or, or inflammatory, they are still like necessary, right? Like the, the revolution is not going to happen if we’re not taking care of each other and if we’re not taking care of ourselves, then we certainly can’t take care of each other.

So I think that like. Yeah, the idea that like burnout is not a thing that can be avoided. It’s a thing that has to be accounted for as a very elegant way of, of summarizing that thought.

Sprout: Yeah. We’ve always tried to tell people coming in and onboarding into our groups that it’s the marathon, not a sprint.

Totally. Totally. Try and give them, try and give them that download, but you know, people are going to do what they’re going to do. And some people are just, you know, designed that way where they take on too much and. You know, it’s hard to see sometimes when they burn out so hard that they step back and can’t come back.

Currently, in one of our small groups within our mutual aid network here, we’re reading the book Overcoming Burnout by Nicole Rose of the Solidarity Apothecary, and they’ve got a Actually a sister podcast on the channel zero network as well, frontline herbalism, although we’ve just started the book and haven’t read through the entire thing, it’s been making us think about what sort of culture setting we can do around getting people to realize when burnout is happening because oftentimes people don’t even realize that that’s what’s going on and being able to take a step back.

Or do whatever they need to do to overcome that period and get back to a healthy place. We want to make sure that this process is collectivized as much as possible, so people don’t feel isolated and alone while going through something that we all experience. Hopefully just reading this book as a group can lend some ideas for us to carry into the organization as a whole.

What ways do you think there are for making the process of recognizing And overcoming burnout more of a collective process.

Pearson: Yeah, I mean it’s a such a good question. I mean, I, I do think that at the end of the day, it comes down to relationships. It comes down to knowing people and not just hanging out with people.

Like, I cannot tell you the amount of times That I have tried to reach out to people to hang out with them outside of organizing spaces and been told, Oh, no, I’m too busy or I’m doing this thing or I have, I don’t have the time. Right. And like, that’s fine. I get it. That’s the. People are busy. I’m fucking busy as hell right now, but at the same time, right, I think that meeting each other and seeing how we behave and how we conduct ourselves outside of those kinds of spaces where you’re working on a community project or when you are trying to like go to a protest, but just like Sitting on the couch and shooting the shit or getting a pizza together or going out for a drink or whatever it might be getting, getting coffee with comrades, whatever it might be.

Right. Like at the end of the day, having that kind of relationship where you know people on an interpersonal level and aren’t just solely interacting with them in those community organizing spaces means that you have an affinity that goes beyond a comradeship, which I think is, is vital. But these, these folks are actually your friends, you know, and as friends, you know, it’s, it’s a lot easier to be like, listen, brother, I, I, I’ve noticed that you’re having a hard time.

And I think that it might be, might, might be a good idea to maybe just like, take a break, you know, and, and calm down or, or like take a step back or like take a smoke break or like, I know that you enjoy gardening. Can I come, can I come over to your garden? Do you want to go on a hike? The, the nice crisp fall weather is, is out.

Let’s go walk around in nature and remember the things that we’re fighting for. Right. Having those kinds of conversations and being able to recognize because you have a close personal relationship with people is I think one of the real. Best ways to do this. And again, like I hate to be the person who’s just like, yeah, just have good relationships with people because having good relationships with people is exhausting and it’s so hard.

And it’s difficult and it’s scary and it requires you to be vulnerable. And it requires you to give a shit and it requires you to maybe get hurt in that process. But I think that. It’s worth it. If it were able to like meet each other where we’re at and, and, and have heart to hearts and be like, Hey, during that meeting, you were coming off like really hardcore and, and I just wanted to know like, what’s going on, like where your mind’s at.

And you might like, by having those kinds of conversations, you might find out, Oh, like, I’m really worried about my job or I’m not, I’m not able to like, you know, pay the rent this month or whatever it might be. Right. And then you can kind of come up alongside them and be like, okay, well. Me and Tommy and Sue, we, you know, have this like like we have this disposable income.

So why don’t we throw you like a couple bucks and maybe that can help you make your, your budget for the week or whatever it might be. Right. And being able to have those kinds of relationships where you really do truly know each other and, and can recognize when those. Points of, of rupture or of disruption are occurring, I think is, is the best antidote to addressing burnout as a, as a collective rather than just recognizing it in yourself cause it can be so difficult to recognize it in yourself.

I’ve had to do a lot of work on myself to try and figure those things out. And I’m. terrible at it. Like just, I’m so bad at it. Like, it’s like the number one thing that I need help with in therapy is like, when, when, why, when am I overstretched? When am I, when am I destroying and eroding what little bit of sanity that I have left?

Cause it’s hard. And so having those, those relationships I think is, is just. Again, really critical, can’t, can’t stress it enough.

Sprout: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think that also would help keep you accountable to not going too far because if you’re just wrapped up in your own mind, it’s easy to get into that thinking of like, well, it’s not.

I mean, it’s true. Like everything is so intense. There’s climate catastrophe, there’s capitalism, there’s, there’s just so much, so it’s easy to be like, well, I need to be doing, I need to sleep three hours and the rest of my day is dedicated to the revolution and having friends, having relationships, I think is naturally going to pull you back from that more extreme state of like giving yourself Over to, to all of it too much.

Pearson: Yeah, play some fucking D& D. Like, you know, Go for a walk. You know, play in the garden. You know, like, hang out with your niece or nephew, or like, you know, whatever, whatever it is that brings you joy, like, you gotta do that shit, or, or you’re gonna lose sight of, like, what the whole point is, right? The whole point is not to, like, just Fight the oppressors and, and, you know, struggle and, and do violence to those who have done violence to us.

Like the whole point, the end goal is to, to live lives that are free and joyful and, you know, that are, are freed of repression and, and, and, and exploitation. And I think that we. Aren’t constantly putting into ourselves and giving ourselves the opportunities to feel joy and to feel the bliss and the relief of, of relationships and of connections, then we’re going to lose sight of what it is we’re fighting for in the first place.

Sprout: Yeah, well, that’s probably something that networks and collectives and groups should think about. Scheduling into their time is something that’s not organizing, something that’s not work, something that’s just, Hey, let’s get together and watch a movie.

Pearson: Something that’s polluck, watching movies, reading books, you know, everybody talks about like, oh, we’re gonna do a book.

We’re not talking business . Yeah, but not, yeah, not doing the fucking work. You know, like the work will keep , God knows. Like you just said, there’s so much shit that needs to get done. Like, don’t, and, and like, like you know, so many book clubs are like, oh. Oh, I need to read theory. Blah, blah, blah. And like, that’s fine.

I love theory. I’ve, I’ve shat on theory a lot on, on coffee with comrades, but I’ve also like, I love theory. I think it’s, I’m a nerd. I enjoy reading it. But I also think like, don’t do that. Like read fiction, right? Like read science fiction or fantasy books with each other, or, you know, watch fucking cool movies together.

Like those are things that can still be really. Awesome opportunities for cultivating conversation for creating the space for affinity, but also they can still, they can still generate revolutionary conversations because we’re all radicals engaged in conversation and inevitably comes up, right? But it doesn’t have to be.

Charyan: For those who haven’t read it or listened to it on their audio book version, check out After the Revolution by Robert Evans.

Sprout: So like we said at the top of the show, you recently announced that you will no longer be recording episodes of Coffee with Comrades, and I must say that I’m glad you made that decision and I’m glad you felt you could make that decision to put yourself in a healthier space.

I also must say that as we started out in this media landscape, your podcast definitely gave us hope for the future and directly inspired us to begin our own podcast venture to share our stories and experiences here in rural Washington with people around the world. We’re incredibly grateful for the conversations and content you created over your few years doing coffee with comrades and look forward to working with you at channel zero network and reading your future work.

What benefits do you think that the channel zero network brings to the podcasts who are a part of it? And what do you hope to see the collective accomplished in the coming months and years?

Pearson: Well, thank you so much for the kind words. I, I sincerely do appreciate it. It’s been really, really melancholic, but also really affirming to hear from folks who, who liked the podcast or who it touched or who, who got something out of it.

And I’m, I’m, I’m really glad that I got to do that and got to participate in that. And I’m glad that I get to pass the proverbial Molotov to y’all to continue carrying it. That said, to answer your question, I think the CZN’s. Fucking great. I think that it’s a really vital resource. I think that the affinity in that group is, is really cool.

I don’t think that I would have gotten started doing Coffee with Comrades if it wasn’t for like the final straw or it’s going down or the soul cast, you know, all these different shows that I really liked. That I was inspired by, you know, and so I think that the work goes on and, and I’m really excited to see all the awesome shows and the different episodes that keep coming out week after week after week as far as what I hope to see the collective accomplish in the coming months and years, more than anything, I think it’s just like to keep radical media alive. And I think that especially post pandemic, there has been this huge resurgence, especially in anarchist milieus of people who are hosting big conferences or who are doing book fairs or who are. Engaging in some kind of media specific work.

And it’s really, really encouraging to see and it’s really, really affirming to see this, this flourishing of a, of a, you know, so called anarchic culture. It’s really humbling to have gotten to participate in that and, and to hopefully continue to participate in it. I think I see the CZN as…

being a really critical voice for the left, especially the anti authoritarian left, the anarchist or autonomous left. And I think that in the years ahead, what I hope to see it do is grow to be a very small facet of a much larger anarchic culture. I think that we are increasingly seeing that with the proliferation of not just theoretical or historical Or social texts, but with creative texts as well.

You know, you shout it out after the revolution. I think that’s an excellent example of a, of a unapologetically like anarchic society in rolling fuck, you know, I, I, you’ve got. People like Margaret Killjoy, you’ve got people like Adrienne Marie Brown all these wonderful folks who are putting together stories of, of hope and of revolution and of transformation.

And I think that, you know, I, I, I came to, to, to radical politics through two avenues through actually reading the Bible and finding out that it was nothing like what my parents told me it was like, and punk music. Right. And I think that art. In particular, it has a real role to play. I don’t think art is going to win the revolution by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that it inspires people.

It gives people a reason to fight. And it reminds us that there’s beauty in the world and that it’s worth living for. And it’s worth fighting for. And so I, I, my hope for this easy and more than anything is for it to, to, like I said, grow, to be a very grow, but for it to. To grow to the extent that it is only a very small part of a much larger culture of radio shows, podcasts arts like visual art art galleries, music, media collectives, right?

I want it to be a small part of a much larger whole. That would be my, my hope for it. More CZNs of podcasts. Yes. Hell yeah.

Sprout: Well, we can’t wait to work with you on some of those projects. Art is truly important and powerful. For example, we here have had real material gains and vital regional connections made from putting out this small podcast.

Thank you so much for coming on the show today. We have to have you back again sometime soon.

Pearson: Yeah, I would love that. Molotov now is probably the coolest name for a podcast. And as soon as I remember when y’all’s name came up on the CZN listserv and people were like, yeah, Molotov now, like democracy now.

It’s so fucking cool. So. Yeah, that’s great. Love to hear it. Love to see it. And yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure and an honor. I’m really glad we got to chat about this stuff. I think, you know, conversations about conflict resolution and burnout and, and media are really integral and really vital.

And I hope that this podcast reaches a folks and gives them something to consider when they are navigating those, those questions of like dealing with conflict or, or trying to recognize whether or not they’re in a cycle of burnout. So yeah, this has been fun y’all. And I’m glad we can make it happen.

And I hope you both have a lovely evening and, and many more episodes of Molotov now.

Sprout

Hell yeah. Thank you, Pearson.

Charyan: Yeah. Thank you for coming on today.

Outro:

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Molotov Now! We hope you found it informative and inspiring. Our goal with the podcast is to reach out beyond our boundaries and connect the happenings in our small town with the struggles going on in major urban centers. We want to talk to you if your a big city organizer, we think we have a lot you can learn from, and we know you have much to teach us. If you would like to come on the show please email us at sabot_media@riseup.net with the header “Molotov Now!” and we will be in touch about setting up an interview and crafting an episode to feature you.

We want to give a shout out to our friends at:

• S: The South Florida Anti-Repression Committee who have launched a solidarity campaign for two individuals facing 12 years for an alleged graffiti attack on a fake Christian anti-choice clinic that does not provide any reproductive care. This Federal overreach and use of the FACE Act, an act meant to protect people visiting reproductive clinics from harassment, is unprecedented. To support this solidarity campaign please visit bit.ly/freeourfighters
• C: We want to thank The Blackflower Collective for their continued support and wish them luck in their fundraising efforts. To support them or learn more their website is blackflowercollective.noblogs.org.
• S: Kolektiva, the anarchist mastodon server, is growing faster than ever thanks to Elon Musk’s stupidity as many activists close their accounts for bluer skies as can be seen in the fluctuation of followers over on IGD’s socials, join at kolektiva.social and follow us and other online activists on decentralized federated internet.
• C: Chehalis River Mutual Aid Network is holding a fundraiser for their weekly meals with Food Not Bombs. To donate visit linktr.ee/crmutualaidnet
• S: The Communique is looking for artist and upcoming event submissions, please write to sabot_media@riseup.net to submit your entry.
• C: Thank you to Pixel Passionate for producing our soundtrack, please check out their website at www.radicalpraxisclothing.com and check out their portfolio in our show notes
• S: and Thank you to the Channel Zero Anarchist Podcast Network. We are proud to be members of a network that creates and shares leading critical analysis, news, and actions from an anarchist perspective.

Remember to check out sabot media’s new website for new episodes, articles, comics, and columns. We have new content all the time. Make sure you follow, like, and subscribe on your favorite corporate data mining platform of choice and go ahead and make the switch to federated social media on the kolektiva mastodon server today @AberdeenLocal1312 for updates on Sabot Media projects such as The Harbor Rat Report, The Saboteurs, The Communique, our podcast Molotov Now! and many other upcoming projects.

That’s all for tonight. Please remember to spay and neuter your cats and don’t forget to cast your votes at those who deserve them.
Solidarity Comrades,
This is Molotov Now! Signing off

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