Episode 15 – brian bean on Palestine, Socialism, and Liberation

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Outline:

S: This is Sprout

C: and this is Charyan, and we are the hosts of Molotov Now!, on The Channel Zero Podcast Network, thank you for joining us on this episode of the podcast.

S: if you like what we do here and want to support it, you can do that by going to linktr.ee/al1312 and clicking donate, or scrolling to the bottom for Patreon.

C: Sorry for the delay in releasing this episode, but we had some difficulty in scheduling one of the interviews today and we felt it was worth holding off for release until we got it and could put it all together for you. Unfortunately, we have been unable to get in touch with our contact in the West Bank, so that interview will have to wait. Today’s episode is still very special to us as we will be talking about Palestine and the many historical and modern struggles faced by the people there.

S: We have brian bean co-editor of the book Palestine: A Socialist Introduction to talk with us about the history of the struggle for socialist liberation in Palestine and the surrounding Arab world.

C: It taken a lot to put this episode together but we know in the end its worth it for the discussions that we need to have around whats going on in Palestine right now. We will return with Upcoming events and news, but first, a message from our sponsor.

Monthly Radical News Roundup:

Music:

Segment one:

brian bean interview

Sprout: Welcome back to Molotov now. We’re joined today by Brian Bean, who co edited the book Palestine, a socialist introduction. I’m going to read here from Hadass Theer, author of A People’s Guide to Capitalism about the book. When she said about the book, Ten powerful essays meticulously woven together by Sumaya Awad and Brian Bean combine rich political history with incisive analysis of the current conjuncture and struggle.

The book provides an entry point for new activists to understand a conflict whose history has been so deliberately obfuscated alongside a rich well of analysis on complex political questions. Awad and Bean’s book should be widely read and its socialist bottom up vision of transformation acted upon.

The book appears to be well received, and we’re excited to talk to Brian today in light of the ongoing war against Gaza. Brian, would you like to introduce yourself for our listeners?

brian: Sure. I’m Brian Bean related to the book that was just mentioned. I’m currently based in Chicago. I organize with the Tempest Socialist Collective and am a co founder and editor of Rampant.

Sprout: Well, I really appreciated the range of voices in the book. I think it did a great job laying out the history and weaving in the narratives of social liberation struggles throughout. It is unfortunate to see many of the failures and betrayals that have led to the current situation in Palestine laid out in such quick succession.

I think the book’s approach to the history is genuinely accessible and digestible. It gives the reader a firm footing to stand on as the chapters go on and the history is replaced with current actions and future strategizing. Was laying out a socialist path forward a key priority for the book?

brian: Yeah, it was definitely one of the main impetuses for the book itself for two reasons.

The first is that since 2008, there has been a general radicalization, particularly around young people. And there’s been a couple of expressions of them. 1 is around organizing around Palestine, particularly on campus and the growth of and the other was this sort of new socialist movement that came about from occupy throughout.

And so part of the purpose of the book was to. Bring socialist ideas to the Palestine organizing crowd and to bring Palestine to the socialist crowd. And that reason is because US support for. Israel that’s oppressing the Palestinians what motivates that and it is their capitalist interests in the region.

And so one of the other arguments in the book is that you can’t really imagine being able to really tackle fighting for liberation of Palestine without talking about tackling and taking on capitalism regionally and even internationally, vice versa. You can’t talk about taking on and building a movement that can stand up to US imperialism without being well equipped and to organize and to politically take on one of the central key planks of US imperialism, which is its support for Israel’s southern colonial state.

And so the book kind of like carries that really centrally all throughout.

Sprout: Yeah, I think it gave a really comprehensive look at that history in this situation, I would hope that it’s pretty well known to our audience that Israel backed by the U. S. is committing a genocide against the Palestinian people.

But for those who are completely new to the history of the conflict, can you give us a brief rundown of the situation of U. S. imperialism backing up the genocidal apartheid state of Israel historically and how that connects to what’s going on today?

brian: Yeah, I mean, you could talk for a very long time about that question, but I think in brief, Israel is a settler colonial state.

And so the colonial states have always required the backing of imperialism because you’re having a group of people, settlers, who are going to someone else’s land and to take them and that requires military backing. And so the Zionist project in Palestine. Has had the backing of various foreign powers since its inception.

First Britain then briefly France, and then since really the mid 60s, the U. S. Has been the main guarantor and backer of the Zionist project. And what motivates that is that the Middle East is a strategically important region for capital capitalism’s favorite fuel oil that makes all the profits come in, comes from the region you know, largely.

And it is a strategically important for a global trade shipping through the Suez Canal Straits of Hormuz as well as finance, particularly recently Gulf finance has been a major player in just the circuits of financial capital internationally. And so, to kind of secure that region as within kind of U. S. hegemony they require a stable backer and they found in the 60s that a settler colonial state, because the, many of the citizens in the state itself is then tied to their imperial backer, is a more reliable, plank aircraft carrier, if you will, than the Arab states surrounding it because people there had movements that fought back against the dictators and against U. S. imperialism there. And so I think what motivates the U. S. ‘s back for Israel is just that Netanyahu, the current president of Israel called it the great aircraft carrier of our two civilizations. And so they’re really explicit when they see it as this kind of watchdog of U. S. interests in the region, the, the, the aircraft carrier that can make sure that it keeps the region in line and is more stable. In their eyes to, to to U. S. interests. And so how that relates to what’s going on right now is that, again, to secure that kind of hegemonic block of economic zone that the U. S. has say in, kind of pulls most of the string zone there’s been a normalization process and that really has gone back for, for decades, but under Trump, it began to escalate. So the normalization process is where. They, uh, Trump and then Biden worked to have the regional Arab states develop open political relationships with Israel and economic ties to be able to make the regional Arab states develop open political relationships with Israel and economic ties to be able to make the, the region itself and an economic zone that is a good business environment for Western capital. Tony Blair, the ex British prime minister said that it it makes the Middle East open for business.

And so what that has meant is that more normalization politically, economically joint military exercises with the Arab states surrounding Israel means that the Palestinian people are left more and more out in the cold with less you know, regional support that was mostly just lip service before, but then there’s none.

And so what that has meant is that the process of, of settler colonialism. That began, you know, before, but in 1948 with the Nakba, in which thousands of Palestinians were ran off their land. There were massacres all throughout historic Palestine. That process of replacing the native indigenous population of Palestinians has been ongoing since that time.

With normalization, that’s basically been the green light for that process. Of settler colonialism, of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to escalate. And so we have seen that since the normalization process kind of restarted under Trump, Biden has carried through with the exact same perspective as Trump.

And that has meant that over the past couple of years, there was a dramatic increase in forced evictions. Of violence in the West Bank of the bombing of Gaza in 2020, and I think that the the current. Genocide happening in Gaza, and I think a very slow motion and escalating war on Palestinians in the West Bank is entirely greenlit by this normalization process, even though it’s under under the pretense of what happened on October 7th.

Sprout: Thank you for that analysis. yeah, I was somewhat familiar with the post 1948 history. Of course, I’ve been looking into the Palestine situation since at least but I was very interested in the pre 1948 history from the book, much of which I did not know. The idea that Zionism goes back that far was truly news to me.

I think that it’s crucial to talk about the idea that Zionism is rooted in pre World War II nationalist mentalities that often mirrored the nationalist, fascist, and authoritarian regimes rising in Europe at the time. That history really helped me to separate the idea of antisemitism and anti Zionism for me.

That and the deep roots in imperialism and colonialism, as you talk about, make it impossible to ignore the intents of the Zionist movement, which is to eradicate the indigenous Palestinian population. What is the most common misconception about Israel or Palestine that you encounter in people that you talk to about this stuff?

brian: Yeah. I Mean, I think that the, I think there’s, there’s three that would be worth to note. The first is this conception that what’s happening there is some centuries old conflict between people, some kind of disagreement between you know, Israeli Jews and Palestinians. And so kind of what you said in the book.

Just blowing that up, I think it’s really important that Zionism, the idea that it needs to be a Jewish only ethnostate is a modern political ideology. It’s not a specific religious tenet related to Judaism, but it is a specific political ideology, and that political ideology comes from a very, very pessimistic outlook on how one fights anti Semitism, particularly in Europe.

And so the Zionists said, well, we actually can’t fight anti Semitism here, so we have to go somewhere else. And then Tragically, that somewhere else was somewhere else where someone else was living. and so I think the first misconception is that, that this whole issue is something that is a, you know, centuries old conflict between people.

And then I think the other component of that is about kind of what you said. That somehow, if you are anti Zionist, you’re anti Semitic, and that old, tired adage is trotted out anytime anyone criticizes the actions of Israel. And I think it’s just like, it’s complete nonsense, but it’s repeated over and over despite that.

And I think what’s key about that is that what that’s rooted in is the notion of that there should be a Jewish only ethno state. And so the, the ADL, the Anti Defamation League, which is one of the organizations in the United States that really presumes to fight anti Semitism. But what it does is police speech around criticizing of all of Israel’s catalogs and catalogs of war crimes they’ve committed throughout the years.

And the ADL says that, well, it’s okay to criticize Israel as long as you don’t question its right to exist as a Jewish only ethnostate. I think that’s the key linchpin, too. It’s like, do you think that there should be a state that is only for a certain ethnic group that is exclusionary of others? And I think it’s like No, I mean, Israel shouldn’t exist in, in the current setup that it is now, which is essentially an ethno state.

And that’s why all these ties between the international far right even though much of the international far right is, as you know anti Semitic, why they, they see Israel as, A positive thing, even an example of someone like Richard Spencer, they see, okay, well then all the different communities can have their own ethnic States that can function to the exclusion of other people.

But that same tired adage of to criticize Israel is to be anti Semitic is one that you still encounter and encounter with, with the current situation right now in ways that is like really disgusting in which people will say, Hey. There’s a genocide happening, you know, there’s 10, 20, 000 Palestinians being killed, schools, hospitals being leveled, a huge percentage being women and children.

Isn’t that a problem? And like, literally people will say, well, I think that’s kind of antisemitic. But I think at its root, I think the main answer to that, that I always say to people, it’s like, That if, if I were to say, who do you blame when an IDF soldier murders a Palestinian child? And I say, I blame the IDF.

I blame the state of Israel. And people who say, well, to criticize Israel is to be anti Semitic, they’re actually the ones who are saying, no, it is the fault, if you will, of all Jewish people. And so, in some ways, to even say that to criticize Israel is anti Semitic is itself an anti Semitic position, because it is saying that Israel represents all Jews all over the world with whatever action that it takes, which is an absurd position.

But it’s trotted out as though some sort of historical fact and it’s relied upon this false history. And that’s one of the best things about this current moment and the, the rise of social media and like, even like leftist Tik Tok and hopefully books like ours is that the, the Zionist kind of plans this piece.

Someone says, well, what Israel’s doing is unjust and they’ll say, well, it’s a complicated history. But now people can just say, okay, well, I’m going to read the history. I’m going to look into it. And it, anyone who scratches the surface sees the crimes that Israel’s carried out, see the process of settler colonialism.

And they see a history that to anyone who has a soul and half a brain, see as one that is clearly one of the oppressor and the oppressed that of the oppressor of the Zionist settler colonial project of Israel and the oppressed people of Palestine who lived there before.

Sprout: Yeah, thanks for breaking that down because it is often confusing to see some of the most far right anti semitic voices siding with the state of Israel sometimes.

And so that’s a good perspective on it. I think

Charyan: what’s the name? I was going to make a comment about it, but I can’t remember the guy’s name. You might know who I’m talking about. They had a huge pro Israel rally In D. C., I think it was, and one of the speakers that they had there, I forget his name, but he has, he’s a well known hate preacher, an anti Semitic hate preacher one of his quotes being that Hitler was sent by God to send the Jews back to Israel or something.

But yeah, the fact they had that person at a rally to talk about anti Semitism and needing to be pro Israel in, in the current situation.

brian: Yeah, I don’t remember his name, but all types of weirdos get trotted out in situations like that. And in the, in the U. S. Christian evangelical Zionists is actually one of the, the fastest growing kind of facets of, of Zionism.

As you see that a lot of particularly young Jews in the United States are breaking with Zionism. And I think evidence of that is all these like really inspiring protests that people and with Jewish Voices for Peace have been doing all around the country about the current genocide in Gaza. And so it’s an interesting sort of shift in who’s.

You know, really driving it here. And I think that, that, that pro Israel rally shows something else that’s really grotesque about the whole political picture in which, yeah, they trot out this right wing evangelist who is probably a just anti Semite to the core. And yet leading democratic party politicians like Chuck Schumer also spoke at it.

And so you see that the support for. The most racist state in the world Israel, has been one that has had the most bipartisan consensus going back decades. I think that is, speaks to why Israel is a key plank of the imperial project, the United States. And that, that disentangling requires, I think, greater.

Greater political projects than just that of human rights, which how liberals take it up, as opposed to seeing as a project that cut to the core of U. S. Capitalism, the U. S. imperial project, and the U. S. state.

Sprout: Yeah, that gets to my next question, I think. One thing that struck me while reading the book was the cycle of disappointing quote unquote leadership organizations of the Palestinian liberation movement over the many years it’s been occupied.

Time and time again, it seemed like the leaders and elites conspired to destroy any real radical vision of liberation. It was so many rounds of failure. At getting a political party on board with social revolution in Palestine and elsewhere. Do you think it’s important to be organizing outside of political parties, both inside and outside of Palestine?

brian: I’ll talk about inside Palestine first. And so I think the important thing to know about political parties inside Palestine is that they’re not political parties of the electoral bent that we have here. They wound up engaging in elections after the Oslo process, but the political parties oftentimes called factions are different political groupings that have carried out the resistance movement largely under the umbrella.

Of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PLO. And so the electoral shift has something that’s happened after the Oslo Accords. But as you mentioned, that there’s been a lot of missteps and some decisions that have been made that I think have put the Palestinian movement in a difficult situation, and I think there’s always things to learn.

About that, I think the other key component of that is that the missteps that were made also came under the intensity of Israeli reaction. And so it’s not just that political decisions were made that could have been done. Otherwise, obviously, it could have been done. Otherwise, but the other part of the, the, the situation is under a very strong duress.

But I think that that all came to a head with the Oslo Accords, the Oslo process in which the end of the first Intifada began to get wrapped up with basically these negotiations that created the Palestinian national authority. And that created the situation here in which you have certain sections of historic Palestine that are under very, very little amounts of.

Administrative control by Palestinians. So the West bank Gaza. And so what Oslo did was it basically, and this was an explicit point of Oslo on behalf of the U S and Israel, it moved to defame the Palestinian resistance. So stop resisting, stop fighting for, for your liberation or one democratic state with secular rights for all, but here is your little.

Many state that you don’t actually have much control over that. You don’t draw the taxes for that. You don’t control the borders. You don’t control your own security. And as we see now, Israel enters militarily all the time. And then many of the political parties wound up basically having to be an administer.

Of these regions that wound up with the conclusion being that certain of the political parties, Fatah mostly, which has been most core in the PA, wound up being a partner with Israel in managing the occupation. And so people’s general feel about the parties there’s been a mass disillusion with them because this promise of a so called state did not come to pass.

And the situation has, in some ways, gotten worse. And so outside of parties is a process that’s currently happening right now. So the, the, the dissatisfaction with Oslo resulted in the Second Intifada. The second Intifada was crushed very violently with full scale military attacks by Israel and the West Bank.

And then you began to see activity, resistance activity that came outside of the current political parties or factions. And that reached its highest point in 2020 with the Unity Intifada. In which youth in East Jerusalem began to militantly try to resist a course of forcible evictions that settlers backed with the force of the Israeli state were trying to carry out, as well as trying to push back against restrictions that Israel was trying to put on the Al Aqsa mosque complex.

And that. Exploded in which you saw demonstrations all over East Jerusalem, you saw a general strike being called all over historic Palestine. So both in the West Bank and in the 1948 territories and Palestinians in the 48 territories, so many of which who are citizens of Israel rose up in an uprising, the city of Lyd, Palestinians basically took it back over tore down the Israeli flag, ran up the Palestinian flag, and it was like a general general uprising.

Across all of historic Palestine, not just the West Bank, but all of historic Palestine. And a lot of the commentators at that time talked about how people are moving beyond the parties because the parties gave no path forward as far as how to achieve liberation. And I think that right now in this current juncture, you see that again.

And so Gaza. Is under intense, you know, genocidal bombing by Israel. So the resistance there is carried out primarily through military means, but in the West Bank since October 7th, same thing before you have people who are engaging in all sorts of different resistance acts, everything from armed resistance to boycotts, mass marches, whatever it takes.

And, and all this is again. Beyond the political parties, part of the main actors that engage in the armed resistance in the West Bank are these brigades that sometimes you’ll see in the news and novelists and Janine, particularly these brigades, which are these armed resistance groups that are non sectarian.

So different than than times in the past, in which each of the different political parties or political factions. Would have their own armed wings. These are non sectarian. So it includes individuals who are part of the different factions. But it’s not like it’s a coalition of the factions of the political parties.

It’s people from below who are joined together to have a self defense of the increasingly militarized Israeli attacks on the refugee camps in the West Banks and the cities. And. The basically arming of settlers to take people’s land in the West Bank, that is a veritable army. Like they’re literally handing out assault rifles to folks and taking people’s land.

And so the Palestinian resistance right now is beyond the parties. I think the question is what you do with that. What vessel, what vehicle, what political program, if you will, can be a part of that. So to think about what’s the step between now and liberation, but that’s kind of where the current struggle is there.

Sprout: You know, that’s inspiring as hell.

Charyan: Yeah, so, coming back to this idea of whether or not to organize inside of or outside of political parties, at least when it comes to the US and Western nations, I know that locally one of our legislators have spent over 30 percent of their campaign funds towards support for Israel.

But they have not formally disclosed this to constituents when voting on the issues. Given that this is happening with various political offices across the nation and other nations as well, what value would you say are organizing electorally have to those living in Palestine now?

brian: Good question. So I think that running in elections is a tactic that has a certain utility.

That being said, I think it’s a. Lower form of struggle than other forms of struggle, because I think that we should have no illusions that we’re going to elect in liberation, but as a, as a tactic, it sometimes has utility. But there’s a big, but there, I think the big, but is that there are certain sections of the socialist movement that see a strategy of running within the democratic party as some way to build a movement.

And I think that is a profound dead end. And I think that’s profound dead end because you’re running a socialist candidate or someone who is for Palestine in a party that is. The probably the most powerful capitalist party in the world. Democratic party is the oldest political party in the world.

So they’ve been through it. And the question of supportive Israel isn’t a secondhand plank for them, but it is a central plank in the maintenance of us imperialism. And so that isn’t going to be tricked out of them or won in a democratic party caucus or anything like that. And I think that the tragedy of that is that you see that manifest in the various socialists who have won office in mostly the house representatives and the Senate, the like so called squad who, you know, have done some good things.

I think Rashida Tlaib has been one of the more principled ones. But They have been completely inconsistent on the question of imperialism and Palestine specifically. Right now, I think they are doing a good thing by kind of pushing for this ceasefire resolution that has raised the question in an interesting way.

But I think that we should be aware. And many of them, including Jamal Bowman and Ilhan Omar, voted for the 4. 3 billion of arms that Israel is currently using to murder Palestinians. And so that contradiction, that they can, before a ceasefire, but also vote for funding the Zionist state, is a contradiction that you’re going to have if you try to leverage your organizing energy to running in a capitalist party.

And I think that the, the. The most cautionary example of that I think is Bernie Sanders. People were very excited by Bernie Sanders. He was the so called savior of the socialist movement. He was bringing socialist ideas to all these people. And I think there’s some positive things that people engage with the ideas.

People consider themselves socialist, began to read and organizing all that stuff. But I think his behavior now among the current genocide is quite scandalous in which he is very militantly backing Biden’s line of this bullshit humanitarian pause, as opposed to ceasefire, like humanitarian pause is some neologism that has been cooked up by Biden and Netanyahu to.

Try to put some kind of gloss on the horrible genocide that’s happening. It’s just the very fact that Sanders continues to argue not for ceasefire, which is the floor, like ceasefires, you’re not going to get liberation of Palestine. Ceasefire, the conditions that led to the situation isn’t going to change at all, but it’s the floor just to stop the immediacy of the genocide that’s happening right now.

And the fact that this person who is the, you know, the. The lion of, of the socialist movement, the person that people were looking for is walking in lockstep with Biden is grotesque. And it should be a warning to those who think that we can run socialist, leftist, pro Palestinian candidates in the democratic party.

It’s something that like, you know, Illinois Senator Dick Durbin, who’s not someone that has any kind of radical stripe is to the left in some ways. Of Bernie Sanders because he backs ceasefire. So these contradictions are not ones that are the result of bad decisions, but the results of a strategy of running in a capitalist party electorally.

And so, you know, elections have a utility. Sometimes they can help to count our forces to maybe get a reform, but they’re a lower form of struggle and engaging in them through the Democratic party is a complete historical dead end has been, and it will be.

Sprout: I fully agree. One inspiring tactic and successful tactic from what I can tell that I’ve seen has definitely been the boycott divestment sanctions movement or BDS, but there must be other ways.

Other direct actions we can take against the apartheid state of Israel. Block the boat has been seeing varying levels of success at physically preventing military cargo from making its way to Israel. A recent blockade in Oakland was successful, but when the boat arrived in Tacoma, the military stepped in to load it themselves when the union refused to do so.

Despite thousands showing up and being ready to stay for days, despite local indigenous tribes showing up in traditional canoes to block the boat from leaving the port, reports we have heard were a disappointing lack of communications from organizers and internal peace policing and a hampering of people’s ability to go above and beyond what the main organizers were willing or comfortable to do.

People are also taking more autonomous actions against U. S. manufacturers and investors who do business with or for Israel. The level of autonomy in these types of actions may prove them to be more successful than large organized marches or demonstrations. What are your thoughts on the most effective tactics for leftists outside of Palestine in this moment?

brian: Yeah, I think in talking about this, it’s important to start with BDS, because BDS since 2005 has been the Strategy of the tactic that Palestinian civil society has asked for people outside of Palestine to do. And, you know, it’s been quite successful, particularly outside the United States. The United States has been mostly something that’s been constrained on the campuses with a little blip in 2020.

But I think what that looks like can look like some of the stuff that you’ve described as well. And I think that I’ve followed the, the block the boats, both in Tacoma and in Oakland. I think they’re tremendously inspiring and exactly. The kind of thing that you want to do. And I think that kind of jives with the fact that particularly in a moment like this, where there’s the dramatic immediacy of stopping genocide.

I think people taking part in whatever they can to just disrupt business as usual to put pressure on politicians, sure, but also to put pressure on weapons manufacturers and the whole babby of corporations who profit from Israel’s occupation is, I think, an important thing to do. I think, you know, weapons manufacturers and the loading of ships in the UK.

There’s been a lot of direct action at arms manufacturers who, who build arms that go to Israel that I think have been really inspiring. And so stopping that process through direct action, I think is a, is a positive thing. I think there’ll always be a place for a mass march because it’s how people’s consciousness changes and how you can count your, your, your, your forces.

And it allows for people. Who have a lower bar of what they can do to participate in a meaningful way. And I think some of them, some of the mass marches, if you’ve done it right, can be very disruptive. And so we had a demonstration. The mass demonstration last Friday during black Friday, and just the, the sheer amount of people that were flooding through the magnificent mile, the big kind of posh shopping district basically shut down a number of the stores in a way that small teams who are doing direct action wouldn’t be able to.

And so I think that, you know, this moment required all types of variety of tactics, and I think everything from, you know, mass marches to. Direct action are what is required. I think the important thing to know for me is that in the end, I think that if we’re actually going to change the status quo, that the target has to be the U. S. state. Because building against corporations and stopping some of the flows of, of, of arms and those sorts of things are really helpful for putting pressure on the state and are really helpful for building the movement and raising awareness. But at the end, The US capitalist class, probably the most powerful ruling class in the world, is really invested in maintaining its important strategic relationship with Israel.

So I think whatever we can do is really important to disrupt the process, to put heat, to make it harder for them to make money, to raise awareness and all those sorts of things. But I think in the end, the question is kind of taking on the state will be key. And seeing that, you know, if we’re going to build a movement to combat U. S. imperialism. Then we’re gonna have to take on the state. And so I think that level of unrest that level of antagonism and in sort of a revolutionary type, I think, is what would, in the end, be required to pose a actual significant challenge to us imperialism. So how we get there. That’s the, that’s the more complicated piece, but I think being clear on the goals and what’s required and what the horizon is, is one point and then talk about the specific strategic decisions and all the sorts of stuff that I think, you know, there’s a lot of things happening.

That’s a positive thing. As long as it continues to. Push and escalate in meaningful ways. That makes sense.

Sprout: Yeah, it does. I think it’s really important to bring up that connection between any movement that’s going to be in support of Palestinian liberation needs to be inherently anti state and any movement that’s anti state should be inherently in favor of Palestinian liberation.

I also think I really appreciate you bringing up that the BDS movement is specifically what Palestinian civil society has been calling for because I think it’s really important that we listen to their voices when we determine what we’re going to do here at home.

Charyan: I know one chapter that I really enjoyed in the book was on women’s and the LGBTQIA two pluses contributions to the struggles in Palestine.

I think that is a uniquely hot topic in areas outside of Palestine, especially with a lot of like the conservative Backlash on any queers having support towards Palestine because oppressions against queer people in various Middle East countries. And I think that despite the complexities, it is incumbent upon revolutionaries to show solidarity with struggles, even when the on the ground details are complex and multilayered, these struggles always intersect and we shouldn’t deny the women and queer communities are solidarity just because they live in a patriarchal society.

This is in fact why we need to fight even harder for the liberation of Palestine. There is no other solution to the gender oppressed around the world than total liberation. Are there struggles that are unique to the gender oppressed within Palestine, as opposed to that faced by all Palestinians, for example, countering the pinkwashed propaganda that Israel puts out about how backwards the Arabs are compared to them?

brian: Yeah, I think, I think the main answer to the question, like. Are there struggles that are unique to the gender oppressed within Palestine? The main answer to that is that there’s not something that’s unique to Palestine that’s not everywhere else. I think people of varying genders and sexualities face various degrees of oppression everywhere, unfortunately, in this, you know, Unrealized world.

And so I think that the most important thing to say is like, well, there’s nothing that’s like, that’s like super special for Palestine, but I think that the next thing you say is exactly what you also begin to say, which is. The, the extension of that, that it is similar to other places has to come up against pinkwashing.

So you mentioned that. And so yeah, pinkwashing is basically an explicit Israeli government practice to depict Israel as a LGBTQ Mecca, particularly in contradistinction with the surrounding countries. That they depict as completely backwards and harsh and homophobic. And that is one element of their human relations campaign, their propaganda campaign that they depict in other ways.

So the other one is there’s also greenwashing, so depicting. Israel as some progressive advancement in green technology in contradistinction with the sort of Petro states of, of the Gulf. The other one that I think it’s often repeated is that Israel’s the only democracy in the Middle East, like that sort of nonsense.

But I think on the question of. Of gender, I think it’s, it’s just to poke holes in that and to expose how bullshit it is and Israel does that itself. And so with Netanyahu’s recent government, the minister of finance Bezalel Smotrik is one of the group of. Far right ultra Zionist extremists that are in the government and Basil L.

Smotrik explicitly said, I’m a fascist and a homophobe, like, that’s a direct quote. That’s like, not me, like putting words in his mouth. And so the, the ultra nationalist settler organizations that have been on the rise. In Israel, because of its rightward trajectory, because of it being a settler colonial state are not, you know, progressive and cool with LGBTQ and queer folks.

And so that’s one level of it. It’s like, there’s a veneer that is more and more coming off. I think the other component of it is to expose that people need to. Live to be able to express their gender identity and their sexuality. And so like, yes, various places in the West bank, like other places there are queer people who don’t feel like, you know, like they want something different and there’s organizations that advocate for that.

Al Qaas is mentioned in the book. There’s a feminist movement. The Talat that basically is against gender based violence. And so there’s movements there that are fighting for this thing, but you can’t have a, a movement to better the specific oppressions that you face under occupation.

You can’t do that under genocide. And so I think the main gist of what is unique is just the fact that folks can’t engage in the social movements to be able to fight for a more progressive world, wherever they are, if you are fenced in, you have no autonomy, you know, they under the threat of bombs and arrests at every corner.

And so I think that contradiction is something that I think is becoming harder and harder for Israel to hold on to because, you know. Because they have a really vibrant pride festival in Tel Aviv looks different when there are thousands upon thousands of women who are being destroyed. Who being murdered in Gaza by, by, by Israel.

Sprout: Yeah, I think that idea that there’s nothing special or unique about the oppressed within Palestine that they’re just like all of us is beautifully humanizing. The book does a really great job of dealing with the various intersecting struggles that make up the conflict in Palestine. A major focus for the book is that of the solidarity between Black and Palestinian liberation fighters.

I remember personally the first time I really considered the connections between the two was during the Ferguson Rebellion. When the two conflicts, the bombing of Gaza at the time and the rebellion in Missouri were co occurring, it was more than obvious the parallels and even material connections between the two.

What do you think that we fighting for BIPOC liberation here in the imperial core? Can learn from the people of Palestine’s struggle historically and its connections with the black liberation movement.

brian: Yeah. I wouldn’t want to be too prescriptive to folks fighting against anti black racism here. From, from my position, but I definitely think that one of the things that’s inspired those connections you mentioned.

Ferguson, the author of the chapter in the book started a group called Black for Palestine. It started after, after Ferguson. And so seeing the connections of struggle being international, I think is one important lesson. I think seeing that the capitalist class, the ruling class, those who oppress people are internationally organized.

So the, the question of the police is probably the, one of the most obvious ones. In which Israel basically exports itself as a security expert as having the best technology. The best training, the best tactics, the cyber security that all of the world’s police forces that are usually used to oppress minorities and people of color comes from being field tested on Palestinians through.

The illegal occupation of, of Palestine. And so the international connections, the ruling class make, and so it only is going to better our movement to make those connections as well. And I think that that connection has been one that has gone back quite a while in the black freedom struggle, which is the second part of your question.

And I think that it is seeing the international dynamics of. Colonialism and seeing being inspired both ways by, by, by fighting against it. And so in 1957, Martin Luther King, after the Montgomery bus boycott went to Ghana where Kwame Nkrumah had kicked out the British and he was tremendously inspired.

He came back and said that he cried tears of joy when the Union Jack was, was lowered. And he, he, he came back and said that Ghana tells us that the forces of the universe on the side of justice, an old order of colonialism, segregation, discrimination is passing away now. And a new order of justice, freedom, and goodwill is being born.

And it was the first time that King like publicly proclaimed his like cry of freedom, free at last. And so he was tremendously inspired by the anti colonial struggles that swept through Africa at that time period. He said, Oh, here’s an example of people who are fighting back against colonial oppression and seeing similarities with the anti black.

Racist regime in the United States. Malcolm X is another one. The same year in 57, he was organizing meetings with various leaders of these anti colonial movements, particularly in in, in Africa and seeing them as inspiring ones. In 60, I forget exactly the. The year 64, he wrote an article called Zionist Logic in which he talked about the problems of Zionism very early compared to other components of sort of the US left milieu.

And again, seeing the, the, the parallels and the similarities between an international struggle against colonialism. Malcolm X was very inspired by the Bandung conference. He was like, Oh, here is a new international people struggling from below, largely from the global South. And so I want to sort of do that here.

And so the, the inspirations of internationalism, I think is one of the facets that is those connections between the struggle against anti black racism here and the struggle for Palestine there. And, you know, there’s a lot of examples of how that connection has played out. But I think the main lesson is just that, like the, the things we fight are not.

particularly to our countries. So building an international movement to oppose the ruling class and the racists, wherever they are, is something that is essential because they are organized in that way is that we need to as

Charyan: well. Those are some wonderful examples. I know the international drive of the book is clear throughout its read.

I think it’s important to think internationally as we look for struggles to find solidarity with under capitalism. But for us as anarchists, we see a vision of a world without states, without classes, and without oppression of any kind. Is there any ways that the socialist vision for a liberated Palestine differ from the anarchist vision?

And if so, how might that look?

brian: I mean, I think that depends on what socialist you ask. I mean, in speaking for myself, I think that the thing that we’re fighting for is a classless society in which there is no need for a state. I think that’s the goal. And I think that how we get there is, is the challenge.

I think some socialists don’t think that some socialists think that. We’ll have a state that will help manage capitalism or the mixed economies of Scandinavia and all that sorts of stuff. But I think that those socialists, you know, misunderstand the liberatory project of, of Marx and someone like Lenin.

That saw the need to to smash the state as being a precursor for the struggle for socialism. And, you know, we could probably go back and forth about what that means and how that’s carried out and different strategies and perspectives from various currents of anarchism and anarcho communism and socialist, but I think in the end.

What is the shared, which I think is who the good socialists are and we’re anarchists is that yes, we in the end think that getting rid of capitalism internationally requires getting rid of states and having a classless society, you know, for each according to their needs and by each according to their ability to, to, to quote Marx.

Sprout: Hell yeah, comrade. One thing that I couldn’t get a handle on was if the book was trying to make the argument that the people of Palestine needed the support of the region’s leadership, the nations of the Arab world, or rather that the people of Palestine should realize that they don’t need and will never get this support and should instead focus on finding solidarity with other working classes around the world.

Do you feel it’s necessary to have a strong state in order to have a successful socialist revolution?

brian: Yeah. So I think the answer to the question That it’s not about the state per se, but it’s getting at the question of where the Palestinians draw their support. And so in the book, it refers to a sort of old slogan of the Palestinian liberation movement, that the road to Jerusalem goes through Cairo, Damascus, and Amman.

And what that’s talking about, it’s, it’s often attributed to one of the theoreticians of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, George Habash. But what it’s talking about is that In order to liberate Palestine, a couple of things need to occur. First is that there needs to be resistance within Palestine.

And that’s obvious. Palestinians will resist. They have resisted. Their steadfast resistance is one of the most inspiring struggles, I think, internationally. And the very fact that if you go to any demonstration that you see a Palestinian flag. That in some ways, the Palestinian flag is like the flag of solidarity is a testament to the struggle and the heroism that those folks have undergone.

However, the other component of that is that part of the argument about what is required for Palestinian liberation is that Palestinians within the structures of the current Israeli state and suppression will not be able to free themselves. Trapped in around the regimes that are surrounding them and with the back end of the U. S. So what would change that status quo? What would change that framework? And what that kind of argument is that? In order to achieve Palestinian liberation, it requires Arab revolt and revolution throughout the region. And so that’s not the, the states as themselves. They have shown that they do not back the Palestinian people with any more than lip service.

But why do they give lip service? And that’s because the call to Palestine is one of the, the most powerful kind of causes across the Arab world. The reason why is because it is the kind of clearest sharpest example of Western imperialism interfering in and holding dominion over people in the region in which.

Israel is that thing people see what happened in the Nakba people see the ongoing stuff people see the United States back in them. And so people are opposing the, the various foreign interventions economically backing up the various despots across the region and see Palestine is the key example of that.

And so. When there’s demonstrations, and I think people, you’ve probably seen them tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands in Yemen and in Jordan who come to the streets to demonstrate in solidarity with Palestine. And yet. The Arab countries do nothing. And so they have to give lip service. So in the past, they have said that they would negotiate this or that, you know, Qatar is, is trying to negotiate this current kind of Paul’s and in hostilities and trying to do all that.

But they haven’t the other jailer of the Palestinians is, is Egypt. So the Rafah border crossing, one of the two crossings into Gaza, one is of course controlled by Israel in the north. The other one is controlled by the Egyptians. So al Sisi, a dictator and a despot is the other jailer of the Palestinians.

During the early days, right after October 7th. Demonstrators in Jordan tried to, to go, to get through into Palestine. And it was the Jordanian police who stopped them. So these examples are in which that the, the countries in the region, because they have been economically integrated into global imperialism.

And many of them are staunchly backed by the U S I mean. Egypt and Jordan, particularly the Saudis, of course receive huge amounts of military aid and the, the, the backing of, of of the U S to the point where they can openly assassinate a journalist Jamal Kashkogi and chop his body up and do it in flaunting basically in front of the entire world and Biden still gives him a fist bump when he goes and so.

What this argument is, is that the people in Palestine will, to get their liberation will require an uprising of the Arab working class, who see really clearly what Israel is and what it represents, and also see the complicity in their own regimes and the structures. Most sharply oppressed Palestinians, but oppressed themselves, they see that connection.

And so in the book where we talk about this, the slogan and this calls that Palestinians require regional support, but it’s not the support of the states of the rulers of the despots backed by the U S and global capital, but the support of. The so called Arab street, the Arab working class that sees the cause of Palestine and that it often has been a tremendous kind of rallying cry.

And so just one example of that I’d like to always talk about is during the Egyptian revolution in 2011. So you want to talk about kind of the horizon, the scope of what this looks like, because it can seem really abstract, but this example makes it really concrete. So when Mubarak fell. In, in, in the early months of 2011, the uh, revolutionaries basically ransacked the Israeli embassy.

They took the various secret files, detailing the links and the interconnections between Israel and Barak and literally dumping out the window. The Israeli ambassador had to flee the country. And really briefly, the Rafah border crossing was opened by the Egyptian revolution. That moment was closed, counter revolution came in, Egypt is a whole other story, but as far as what would upset the balance, the very tenuous balance that just means the complete immiseration of Palestinians, like imagine if there was a revolution in Egypt, the Rapa border crossing was open.

Completely different situation. Imagine if the border with Jordan was not policed. Imagine if there’s all these sorts of things that you can imagine changing kind of the current status quo that sets up Palestinians to be so isolated. And they continue to fight, but that, that fight and the struggle within Palestine also requires regional revolts and revolutions of the Arab working class against their own regimes, who are their own kind of partners of U. S. imperialism in their own right.

Charyan: Well, thank you for coming on the show today. This has been a really insightful look at your book, Palestine, a socialist introduction before we go, I would ask one last thing for those who still insist that history began on October 7th, what would you like to say to them and what would you like them to do following up with that information?

brian: Well, they can read the book. I mean, I think that one thing that exposes this is after October 7th, a couple of Israeli politicians. In describing what they were going to do in Gaza said that they were going to finish the Nakba. That was the words that they used. Finish the Nakba. And since then in the almost two months since the, the, the genocide began, more Palestinians have been killed in Gaza than in the Nakba in 1948.

And the Nakba is, of course, the Arabic word for the catastrophe, which is. When the Zionist militias under planned Dalit pushed Palestinians out of their villages massacred many in order to secure the Jewish only at the state of Israel. And so I mentioned that because politicians, Israeli politicians said, I’m going to finish the Nakba.

Which is interesting because before October 7th, it is actually illegal to talk about the Nakba within 1948, Israel. Nakba memorials are not allowed, are broken up by the police, textbooks aren’t allowed to have it, and people who try to talk about it publicly, professors and whatnot, are basically banned.

And so even the memory of the catastrophe of what anyone who has any kind of knowledge of international law can clearly call ethnic quenching was not allowed to be talked about. They tried to erase the memory of the thing that happened. And so what does it mean that now they’re utilizing this term that before they tried to erase, and I think they’re utilizing it because The open the open project of ethnic cleansing, of the elimination, expulsion, and the erasure of the memory of Palestinians is the overt motivating force of Israel right now.

And so the fact that they will use that term, the Nakba, that they were perhaps scared of before, shows how brazen their violence is. And so I think that kind of Descriptor hopefully can get people to think about the things that came before the, the various war crimes, the fact that pretty much the entire occupation is considered illegal by international law and read the history that’s there.

And as far as what people can do about it. I think now is the time to get involved in whatever way that you can, because this is, I mean, in the, the, the horrors of, of late capitalism, there’s a lot of horrible things in the world and atrocities and injustices, but I think that. The open slaughter of innocent people who have nowhere to go probably has no historical comparison back till maybe the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and back to the crimes of the Holocaust and World War II.

And so I think right now, many of us are living through, you know, the worst humanitarian issue that we have experienced in our lives. And in that moment of history, I think the question is. What did you do about it? When we look back at something that we were reminded, we’ll be remembered as a bleak and dark time.

I want people to think about what were you doing to stop it at that point in time and answering that question is based on what one’s able to do and what’s willing to do, but you need to answer it in the affirmative. And so in, in doing something to stop it, you know, take part in the, the demonstrations, take part in trying to bring about ceasefire, but do that, knowing that even if there is a ceasefire.

The conditions that led to this are not going to go away, and what is needed is to revitalize the BDS movement, to revitalize taking on the corporations, the states, the weapons manufacturers that profit from the illegal occupation, and that can be as maximal as Doing a direct action to shut down a weapons corporation.

It can be as minimal as passing a statement in your, your church. I think there’s so many ways to plug in, which is part of the, the kind of positive flexibility of BDS. And so take it where you will, but get engaged and push it and make sure that we continue to organize. a Ceasefire is to come about because the conditions aren’t going to change and Israel is clear that it wants the full annexation of all of historic Palestine.

Sprout: Yeah, I think one of the most important things that we can do and one thing that I know for myself has given me a lot of empowerment around the issue is learning this history and reading books like yours and getting familiar with the situation so that we can just continuously be talking about Palestine and and feel like we’re on a good footing.

And this is something I know about. This is something I’ve read about. We can bring it up in all our social situations and our social circles here at home and be talking about it from a place that we have confidence in. So I think that, like you said, getting involved in In whatever aspect of struggle makes sense for you and your situation, but also learning the history and a part of what Israel is really trying to do, like you said, is a race that history and never talk about it.

So I think just you’re writing that book is really powerful. And anytime anyone can read a book like that Is also powerful because it gives them the tools that they need to be able to just talk about this situation, and that could be the first step a lot of times into feeling out, you know, who around you, where does everyone stand around you on this situation?

And who do you need to do some like education on? I think it’s just a really good idea to to learn those histories, even though they might not be ours directly, because it does give you such an empowerment when you’re talking about it with other people. Totally.

brian: And I think especially as, as people who live in the American state too, it’s like, there’s a lot of different struggles that we should be knowledgeable in, but the, the government that we probably unfortunately pay tax dollars to is the chief guarantor and backer of this most racist state in the world.

And so that while the U S has a kind of special relationship with Israel, I think that’s why people who live in this country have a special responsibility. To understand that dynamic and to be vocal about that dynamic, because it’s the government that lords over us, that is the, the chief perpetrator and backer of that internationally.

So there’s a responsibility that we have here to, like you said, know what’s going on and just don’t stop talking about Palestine.

Sprout: Yeah, well, I’ve seen a lot of really inspirational stuff coming from other countries, and I hope that U. S. radicals can step their game up to meet that demand. I can’t tell you how much we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today about this really important stuff.

I hope that our conversation can be useful and informative to people and play some small part in this conversation.

brian: Thanks, comrades.

​Music:

Outro:

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Molotov Now! We hope you found it informative and inspiring. Our goal with the podcast is to reach out beyond our boundaries and connect the happenings in our small town with the struggles going on in major urban centers. We want to talk to you if your a big city organizer, we think we have a lot you can learn from, and we know you have much to teach us. If you would like to come on the show please email us at sabot_media@riseup.net with the header “Molotov Now!” and we will be in touch about setting up an interview and crafting an episode to feature you.

We want to give a shout out to our friends at:

• C: Sabotage Noise Productions for putting on awesome benefit shows, including one for The Blackflower Collective, and for being all around awesome people.
• S: The South Florida Anti-Repression Committee who have launched a solidarity campaign for two individuals facing 12 years for an alleged graffiti attack on a fake Christian anti-choice clinic that does not provide any reproductive care. This Federal overreach and use of the FACE Act, an act meant to protect people visiting reproductive clinics from harassment, is unprecedented. To support this solidarity campaign please visit bit.ly/freeourfighters
• C: We want to thank The Blackflower Collective for their continued support and wish them luck in their fundraising efforts. To support them or learn more their website is blackflowercollective.noblogs.org.
• S: Kolektiva, the anarchist mastodon server, is growing faster than ever thanks to Elon Musk’s stupidity as many activists close their accounts for bluer skies as can be seen in the fluctuation of followers over on IGD’s socials, join at kolektiva.social and follow us and other online activists on decentralized federated internet.
• C: Chehalis River Mutual Aid Network is holding a fundraiser for their weekly meals with Food Not Bombs. To donate visit linktr.ee/crmutualaidnet
• S: The Communique is looking for artist and upcoming event submissions, please write to sabot_media@riseup.net to submit your entry.
• C: Sabotage Noise Productions who will be throwing a benefit concert at Left Bank Books in Seattle to support Queer Satanic this August 19th at 7pm. Check them out on Instagram for more info.
• S: As reported previously, Katey Hussey is still struggling in the wake of harassment by Dayton Police that has cost her their employment and housing. Luckily it appears as though the charges against her have been dropped. But she has lost everything because of this and still faces an uphill battle getting back on her feet. Please send any donations to Venmo @katyHussey or Cashapp $KatyHussey to help them during this time.
• C: Thank you to Pixel Passionate for producing our soundtrack, please check out their website at www.radicalpraxisclothing.com and check out their portfolio in our show notes
• S: and Thank you to the Channel Zero Anarchist Podcast Network. We are proud to be members of a network that creates and shares leading critical analysis, news, and actions from an anarchist perspective.

Remember to check out sabot media’s new website for new episodes, articles, comics, and columns. We have new content all the time. Make sure you follow, like, and subscribe on your favorite corporate data mining platform of choice and go ahead and make the switch to federated social media on the kolektiva mastodon server today @AberdeenLocal1312 for updates on Sabot Media projects such as The Harbor Rat Report, The Saboteurs, The Communique, our podcast Molotov Now! and many other upcoming projects.

That’s all for tonight. Please remember to spay and neuter your cats and don’t forget to cast your votes at those who deserve them.

Solidarity Comrades,
This is Molotov Now! Signing off

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