Mk: Hello and welcome to The Child and Its Enemies, a podcast about queer and neurodivergent kids slipping out anarchy and Youth Liberation here at the child and its enemies. We believe that youth Autonomy is. It’s not only crucial to queer and trans liberation, but to anarchy itself. Governance is inherently based on projecting linear narratives of time and development and gender onto our necessarily asynchronous and atemporal queer lives, and youth and teens are at the center of this form of oppression.
Our goal with the podcast is to create a space by and for youth that challenges all forms of control, and inspires us to create queer, feral, ageless networks of care. I’m your host, MK Zario, and 15 years old and I’m the youth correspondent at the Anarchist Review of Books, author of the blog Debate Me Bro, and a trans liberationist organizer in the Great Lakes region.
With me today is Shuli Branson, the author of Practical Anarchism, host of Final Straw Radio, and creator of the Breakup Theory of Anarchism.
Shuli: Hi MK, I’m so glad to be here talking with you. I really admire the work that you’re doing, this project in general, And I’m also committed to the struggle for youth liberation, one of the most overlooked ways I think that hierarchy rules our lives.
I’m Shuli, she or they, and as you said I host the Breakup Theory Podcast along with my sometimes co host Caroline and River. I was a frequent co host of the Final Straw Radio, a long running and seminal anarchist broadcast, but I haven’t been doing that so much lately. I’ve been on the collective organizing the Another Carolina Anarchist Book Fair, which is coming up at the end of this month, June, in Asheville, North Carolina, and Like that, I’ve helped create many other events and spaces for queer anarchists encounter.
Mk: So the Breakup Theory of Anarchism is one of your newest projects and it sounds so relevant to youth liberation, especially in the context of family abolition and other liberatory ideas that involve restructuring what relationships and networks of care can look like. Can you define the breakup theory of anarchism for our listeners and talk a bit about its history?
And I will say I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, having recently gone through a breakup, and it is so important to talk about this in our anarchist spaces. So thank you for bringing this up.
Shuli: Yeah, I’m sorry to hear about the breakup, but I hope that you find The sort of the freedom in whatever you’re going through right now, even though it’s, and then you don’t let yourself experience the pain because that’s real.
Mk: I’m finding it really finding a lot of community and queer spaces. And I feel like that’s one of the most meaningful parts of what it what tends to be stereotyped about teenagers, but it’s also so true. Like we’re here to support each other through these times.
Shuli: That’s amazing. Yeah. Finding connection and not isolating is really good.
So yeah, my sort of coming to breakup as an idea, I started thinking about it in when I was writing the book Practical Anarchism. And I was thinking about anarchism as a practice of breaking up. It’s that’s something that anarchism can teach us. It came from many discussions I had and learning from other anarchists, plus my own experience in relationships, breakups, and then also organizing.
And one of the things that I felt anarchism teaches us to do is to end things. We don’t seek to create forever institutions or parties. We acknowledge that we need to retain the flexibility to move with conditions and to counter the tendency of power to collect and stay in certain places. I also wanted to emphasize this because in overturning hierarchies, we have to contend with the forces of naturalization.
That’s what tells us these power systems are inevitable and eternal. We’re born this way. These hierarchies are things like adults over children, men over women, straights over gays, bosses over workers, white people over everyone else. the West over the entire world, the state over other forms of social organization, and so on.
And so my trans anarcho feminist work is to denaturalize hierarchies and help destroy them, and then create conditions to transform the space into other things. I can talk more about the general ideas of anarchism and ending, but I found that this perspective helped Also specifically in our daily relationships, and this is something I became quite interested in, to locate anarchism not simply in the visible or invisible confrontation with the state, but also in our daily practices, how we relate to others.
In fact, I want to consider anarchism as a way of countering hierarchy in every relationship or interaction we have. No matter how small, I think a major form of liberation is knowing that we do not, that we have the power to end things whenever we want, whether we actually end them or not, like knowing that you can end it, I think is important and not being stuck in that idea of eternal eternity.
And we’re often put into situations beyond our control. Family is a major space for this. I think it’s the dominant experience of oppression for youth. Thinking about how to create escape routes and exit plans I think allows us to engage in the relationships on a more voluntary basis rather than simply through coercion.
As a child I felt totally suffocated. Anyway, these are some of the ideas and I could expand on anything you wanted.
Mk: This idea of relationships existing by choice, of not being bound to one another coercively, but instead experiencing atemporal and voluntary care, is so powerful. Would you say that the breakup theory is explicitly youth liberationist How and what can it mean more broadly for our relationships and interpersonal dynamics to be queer and be ageless and thus be impermanent and still meaningful?
Shuli: I like this question. So yes, I think for me, everything that I do has to be youth and career liberationists. And, sometimes these things are taken for granted, but I think we need to be explicit. And these are, these are perspectives that are often left out not even just because they’re assumed, but because they’re total blind spots for people.
Whenever I’m engaging with these ideas, it’s within the context of, youth liberation. Against adult supremacy and for trans queer liberation. I think adult supremacy is one of the most unquestioned, naturalized hierarchies that rules our lives and is really tricky to counter, especially in the ways that the state upholds blood relations, nuclear family structures and so on.
But we’re in this moment where it becomes so evident. that this is like the most intensely enforced hierarchy in the way that fascist christian rights along with right wing, sorry, fascist christian right wingers along with liberals and TERFs are attacking the possibility of trans youth. Through ideas like parental rights, or attacking the parents who support their kids freedom.
That, the idea that children are property of the parents is at the root of this. Property being one of the essential relationships that fuels the dominant ideology of state and capital. But to get less heady as an adult, I also just want to help promote youth liberation any way I can, listening to young people, lifting up young people’s projects and ideas, trying to create situations for young people to flourish with autonomy, calling out the obliviousness of this in so many anarchist spaces.
This is such a huge failure. And my. mind that they’re not inclusive of young people. And to twin this with queer liberation, I really think that we’re at a turning point where we don’t know what’s happening. We can’t predict it. Young people, though, are doing something to make a different world. I think it hangs in the balance, right?
Like it could be captured the work that youth are doing, but it could also be a path towards liberation. Obviously I’m in a bit of an echo chamber because many of the young people I encounter are queer, trans, and in their queerness, they’re finding ways to refuse this world. But I just think that it’s leading somewhere that we don’t know.
And I want to make space for that rather than, from a position of age or experience or whatever, knowledge that I’ve acquired. To think that I know better.
Mk: The idea of the very existence of us queer youth as refusal resonates so much. A lot of the teenagers I hang out with will joke about being too queer to function, and they’ll have an I’m too gay for this profile picture, but in actuality, Queerness is a refusal to be functional to the state, to compulsory education, to the nuclear family.
It’s a refusal of achievement. It’s a refusal to choose people pleasing over internal meaning. It’s inherently a negation of the state, as is talked about in queer ultraviolence. And in a way, that’s part of why it’s so meaningful for transarchists of all ages to support trans kids. Not just because we’re under attack legally, But because for us to exist disrupts the very idea of childhood and linear time.
So on that note about what adult solidarity looks like, how do you tend to apply the breakup theory in your organizing? And how can youth in anarchist spaces apply it?
Shuli: I just, I do this by leaving the groups that don’t work for me, just to touch on the first thing you said though I want to say Because I really like this idea of being too queer to function.
And I think that, there’s like the taking up of our refusal as a kind of action. But I think a lot of people, especially young people are being pushed into this position of seeing very clearly firsthand that things that as they exist don’t work for them. And so it’s not even always like a question of choice.
Like you cannot take up the paths that are laid out ahead of you. And opening these spaces of trends. Transition and queerness and anarchism put create a space to put that energy of breaking with the dominant world. But yeah, so like in terms of breaking up in my organizing, I’ve had the experience of running my head up against the wall and then being like, oh, this group doesn’t share affinity and I would be better off getting out of here or splitting with it.
This is happening a lot lately, actually, for me. And I think this is a way of letting go, allowing people to do their own thing, right? Because a lot of times, I think we, find ourselves wanting to control other people and that should be a immediate alert that we’re going down a bad path. So let people go do their own thing, even if you don’t agree with what they’re doing, right?
We can allow for a diversity of tactics. I think for youth in anarchist spaces they can engage, from this perspective. Break up perspective by determining when they work separately and when they work together with older anarchists. Feel emboldened to call out the erasure of youth self determination or youth inclusion when they see it.
And I think, youth strategies might demand different tactics and approaches than whatever the norm is in your community or the group that you’re working in, and that’s okay. Don’t let adults tell you that they know better, right? I think youth should be able to see that, and probably do know that firsthand, even though they’re sometimes like, shut down, that adults don’t know better inherently.
Especially when they’re telling you that They know how to do a revolution because clearly they haven’t done that, right? There’s a balance, I think, between innovation that comes from young people who haven’t been beaten down by circumstance, right? There’s a willingness to experiment and take different kinds of risks.
And then, On the other side, the lessons from experience that people who’ve been working for a while can bring. But I think that yeah, I just find that we tend to overemphasize the people who’ve been in it for a long time over the innovations of younger people.
Mk: For sure. And my organizing mentor always talks about this.
The necessity of spaces being multi generational. How we can’t just have teen spaces because then those tend to be really within compulsory education. But we also just can’t have adult spaces because that’s freaking ageist. So we need that dynamic of mentorship but also equality between youth and teens and that network of care that eventually makes age irrelevant.
And hearing this when I was first joining the anarchist movement was so necessary because I think a lot of younger anarchists don’t.
Speaking of tactics and what Youth Liberationist organizing is. What’s your experience been hosting the final straw radio? Have you always been into anarchist media?
Shuli: Yeah, so I got into anarchism through a kind of media through punk music and then zines and books that connected punk with anarchism.
And that happened when I was like 13 or so. And actually, going back to this intergenerational thing, which I agree is super important. And it’s something I’ve been. dealing with a lot because of encampment stuff so as a teacher and like engaging with students and seeing the clashes of that but punk was a space for me also where there’s people of all kinds of ages so that was interesting it also led to problems you know bad behaviors but anyway That’s a little bit of a side.
In terms of the final straw I was, as a listener, I like, I love being able to hear anarchist radio shows and podcasts, and I think it’s helpful to get reports from what’s happening in other places and other kinds of projects, what obstacles people run up against when they’ve found, success in what they’re doing.
From all over the world. And this is something the final straw does really well. It’s the kind of an international perspective. I think, obviously anarchist media isn’t everything. There has to be an element of hiddenness to anarchism stuff that we don’t share and don’t talk about. So it’s just one, part of practice anarchist practice, but I think the final straw is just such a wonderful project that I feel very lucky that I got invited by bursts.
Who’s, who’s been doing the final straw for, since the beginning to contribute in ways that bore out my own interests and talents. And this gave me a really amazing opportunity to have discussions with people I admire, which I love doing. That’s my favorite thing to do. And I learned new perspectives and ideas and having these conversations.
I also got to host round tables with William. Who’s another host of the final straw. And so we would invite guests on to have discussions about. issues that were vexing them in their organizing or to think about new directions to take things. And that was just a really fun thing to do. I really love the opportunity to think alongside people, like in the moment, having conversations, particularly people who inspire me.
So this is just one of my favorite things to be able to do it. It’s like a dream. And the other thing I would say is I’m so lucky that I got to record interviews and then burst with it. Edit them with his expertise because right now that I’m editing my own podcast. I’m learning how much labor that entails.
It’s very intensive.
Mk: I also think it’s definitely a thing. I’ve been learning audacity for the first time to create this podcast, and it’s really shown me how much it takes to produce anarchist media. And I think that’s one thing that is necessary in youth liberation. Like we need to Teen oriented skill shares.
We need accessible resources because otherwise there’s just a huge learning curve that’s prohibitive for so many people.
Shuli: Totally. I think that’s amazing to yeah, to learn how to do these things. And also I just think, for a while I was held up by the editing because I was like, This is just not something that interests me and isn’t where my skills or talent lie, but then I like, I just was like, Oh, I actually can do it, but I think there’s again, a balance between finding the things that you do well and pushing in those directions and then also broadening what you’re able to do.
But yeah, God, it’s a lot of work. And I, yeah, I was also just going to say like channel zero as this kind of overarching umbrella project is really cool because it brings together all these different media projects. And that’s like this liberatory alternative to the content that you just discover if you open up whatever Spotify or Apple podcasts.
So I just think it’s really good to have all these different shows grouped together. And it’s I think it’s important because if you like, if you follow the suggestions of these mainstream things, like through, listening to left podcasts, they’re not going to point you in the direction of anarchism that still gets left out.
So it can lead you down bad roads. Like you end up just like with Jacobin socialism or whatever voting for the Democrats. I think there’s so many Projects that are part of this network and they allow discovery of new things. And I’m so stoked that The Child and His Enemies has become part of that.
This I don’t know, universe of anarchist media projects. I think this is, youth liberation, anarchism, we are working against the kind of erasure the history of these kinds of projects, the long struggles for liberation, but also right now, the idea of anarchism is often left off the table, even though they use all the work we do and every kind of street movement.
And anarchism is just not ever seen really as a serious proposition or a way of engaging with the world and life. And I think that this is actually intimately tied to the idea of youth liberation because anarchism is disregarded as adolescent, something you grow out of when start to accept more realistic ideas, either like becoming a, bourgeois or an authoritarian Marxist.
And neither of those are satisfactory from my point of view. So I think we just need to fight this at all costs because it’s a losing game. Stacks the decks towards repetition that’s not only foolish, but is boring. And again, this is something I think we’re seeing right now. A kind of repetition once again.
Mk: I love that you got into anarchy mostly through punk spaces, and as you’ve talked about, youth driven and DIY media, such as this podcast and everything else on the Channel Zero network, makes anarchy not only more accessible to youth, but actively affirming and personally relatable. So were you into anarchy and punk as a kid and teen?
How did you organize and what would have made it more accessible for you when you were younger?
Shuli: Yeah, that’s such a good point. Stuff like this didn’t exist. We had a different kind of infrastructure through zines and stuff. So there was a thing called book your own fucking life, which was put out by Maximum Rock and Roll.
And you could go to the store. I think it came out. I can’t remember how frequently, like once a year, but it would tell you all the places that like across. The US, where you could go, and where there’d be punks, where you could book shows, and it was like this little compendium, it was like a bible to me but a lot of this stuff happened through zines, but I was also in this kind of early moment of chat, internet chat, IRC, where I met other punks, but punk, yeah, punk was like, just such an important way in for me, it’s not for everyone, but as someone who always bucked at authority but also could fit within structures.
Punk worked in a way. I was in this weird position as a kid. I did well in school, but I also got in trouble a lot. And punk giving me this coherent idea of anarchism was really helpful because it helped me understand both of those sides of myself. And then it, yeah, it gave me the space and DIY youth subculture, which I think is like a foundational part of who I am that experience of punk and it’s a way that you share, like you can meet other punks and you have some shared thing.
It’s the same thing with anarchists, same thing with trans people, and I especially love when all three of those overlap when I’m like with trans anarchist punks. But yeah, punk is like a part of the way that I see the world, and growing up in these spaces that are created by punks, Even when they sucked, which, in Boston was most of the time in certain ways, it made me feel that we could, that there are counter worlds that are possible.
I had to find my way out of this violent macho punk space in Boston that I grew up with to get to the trans queer world where I actually fit. And that took time, punk isn’t perfect, but this mess is a mess that I identify with. And then, in terms of organizing the thing that was, like, so fundamental to my childhood was all age matinees that I could access through public transportation.
I spent every Saturday at the show. And that’s not a specifically political or protest kind of organizing, but I think it, it vibes with what I think is one of the strengths of anarchist organizing, which is creating spaces for people to come together, do the things that they love.
And share, and then build the world together. And I think, there are critiques of subculture as a way into anarchism, and critiques of subculture just, But I think that it’s like a very special place that said in those spaces, I wish that my interest in revolutionary liberationist politics had been fostered more by other people in there because it, because the subculture also just becomes like a way to party for some people, and I was like, I’m, I was the kind of kid who liked to have a mentor and basically like punk was a shield for me against homophobic bullying. But that became like the primary source the primary use, of punk for me as a kid. And that took over from my ability to imagine liberatory futures until I got older.
So I think that it could have been better in a lot of ways. But I think punk has changed a lot. In the 90s, it was super violent and dangerous often. And, and and, it could be really macho. And I think that’s changed a bit in certain spaces, at least. And that’s so exciting.
Mk: That idea of being a youth and finding an imperfect scene and still getting some measure of support and care and world making through that is so necessary.
A couple weeks ago I actually had Jenny Bastian, the founder of this independent punk venue, Communication Madison, on and her work is explicitly all ages and queer and neurodivergent. And it gives me so much hope that things are changing like that. And that as. Teams who need mentorship and need care and need a DIY scene to be a part of that.
We have those resources. So what advice would you have for kids and teams who want to get into anarchist organizing in theory?
Shuli: I think, trust your gut, trust yourself, listen to it, find a way to hear what you want and need, and don’t, let it be credited out by other people telling you what it should be or how it should be done.
Find your people. Don’t sweat when you mess up or like something that you try fails like that’s part of it And I think don’t give any kind of credence to the idea that people know things once and for all, right? Like you always have to experiment and try again keep dreaming realizing your desires Even when they seem out of the form, out of the norm your desires are worth living out in ways.
And I think I was actually just talking about this with a trans friend, that putting weird stuff out there is like actually very important because then you find other people through the weirdness. You often think Oh, this is so weird. No one else will like it. But I’ve found that when you do the weird stuff, people are like, Oh, yeah, I needed this, but yeah, there’s no right way to do things. So just try out what comes to mind and figure out what works for you from that.
Mk: That makes such sense as advice for teenagers how anarchy is not about being perfect. It’s not about finding an amazing affinity group and spending the rest of your life with them.
It’s about really trial and error and figuring out what’s meaningful to us and as you talk about with the breakup theory, embracing endings as anarchism. On that note, any shameless plugs for your organizing?
Shuli: Yeah, I have a Patreon where I have, I post my podcast, although the podcast is also available, Spotify and all those places, YouTube, all those places, but I also post on my Patreon writing that I do, stuff that, becomes zines or something.
So you can go there to patreon. com slash The Breakup Theory. You can support me financially there, but I don’t have anything paywalled. I do appreciate the support, because being a public analyst does not pay very well. I’m always working to make ends meet, but I never, I want to have everything available.
Yeah, so check out my writing there. There’s Zooms and stuff up there. You can listen to The Breakup Theory wherever you find podcasts. And then I have books and other articles and stuff, and I love hearing from people. So if you want to check me out and reach out to me, you can check me out on on the website and communicate with me there.
My website, sj branson.com or on Instagram at Branson. I’m also to be found, but I like hearing what people are up to and what they think, so I encourage that.
Mk: Thank you so much for sharing your Youth Liberation journey. I’m MK Zariel. This has been truly Branson and here listening. The Child and its Enemies.